Security guard can't defend himself!
http://webm926e.ntx.net/protection/_protection/00000587.htm
http://webm926e.ntx.net/protection/_protection/00000587.htm
Aussie law against pepper spray too!
- Thread starter Solitar
- Start date
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
How long before they outlaw nightsticks and long flashlights?
Bruce in West Oz
New member
I didn't see this article anywhere here ... and it's about my hometown.
However, as I understand it, the situation is:
• No-one can routinely carry pepper spray (except the Police Service) but if someone is caught carrying it and can exhibit a legitimate need , they won't be charged. Example: A pizza delivery woman was recently attacked when she went to deliver a pizza at night. Her employer had "issued" her with a pepper spray, for obvious reasons. She whacked the BG with it, and he was subsequently arrested by police. The police said they could, under the legislation, have charged her and her employer, but they wouldn't because she had a "need" to carry it.
• "Ordinary" security guards can't carry pepper spray OR nightsticks (both deemed offensive weapons). The guards in the big shopping centres (malls) used to carry handcuffs, but these have gone, too. Maybe someone complained. B-I-G torches are very popular, however
• Certain security guards, especially those dealing with cash, are trained and licensed to carry firearms -- usually openly but concealed is also allowed under limited circumstances (e.g. the "guards" at the Casino). These are issue guns and can not be taken off duty.
B
However, as I understand it, the situation is:
• No-one can routinely carry pepper spray (except the Police Service) but if someone is caught carrying it and can exhibit a legitimate need , they won't be charged. Example: A pizza delivery woman was recently attacked when she went to deliver a pizza at night. Her employer had "issued" her with a pepper spray, for obvious reasons. She whacked the BG with it, and he was subsequently arrested by police. The police said they could, under the legislation, have charged her and her employer, but they wouldn't because she had a "need" to carry it.
• "Ordinary" security guards can't carry pepper spray OR nightsticks (both deemed offensive weapons). The guards in the big shopping centres (malls) used to carry handcuffs, but these have gone, too. Maybe someone complained. B-I-G torches are very popular, however
• Certain security guards, especially those dealing with cash, are trained and licensed to carry firearms -- usually openly but concealed is also allowed under limited circumstances (e.g. the "guards" at the Casino). These are issue guns and can not be taken off duty.
B
swampgator
New member
Bruce and all other Aussies here,
I truly feel sorry for you guys. But I have to ask one question. Is it possible to elect officals down there that are more sensitive to "needs" of our side? Or is too late?
You guys have always struck me as independent and rugged. Sickening to see one of the great countries fall into something so terrible.
BTW what's the personal income tax rate now?
I had a physical therapist who was on a work visa, whose mother had a therapy clinic in Queensland (IIRC) and I think he told me the rate was roughly 50% if not more.
Gator
I truly feel sorry for you guys. But I have to ask one question. Is it possible to elect officals down there that are more sensitive to "needs" of our side? Or is too late?
You guys have always struck me as independent and rugged. Sickening to see one of the great countries fall into something so terrible.
BTW what's the personal income tax rate now?
I had a physical therapist who was on a work visa, whose mother had a therapy clinic in Queensland (IIRC) and I think he told me the rate was roughly 50% if not more.
Gator
Between this & the ban on "assualt dogs" in Germany they must be real worried that their SS officers are such sissies thay can't even go up against people armed with anything. IMO they do not coun't votes anywhere anymore so it is impossible to vote the higher ups out, but I suppose it's still worth a try.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Texas
San Antonio Express-News
August 28, 1999
Girl uses Mace to foil kidnapping of friend
By Karisa King; Express-News Staff Writer
Section: Metro / South Texas
Edition: Metro
Page: 4B
Estimated Printed Pages: 2
Index Terms:
News - Local
Article Text:
A 12-year-old girl rescued her friend from a potential kidnapper by repeatedly spraying his eyes with Mace, police said.
Meanwhile, authorities statewide continue to look for another man wanted in an attempted kidnapping about two weeks ago in San Antonio.
In Sunday's incident, the girls, both 12, were walking in a North West side neighborhood when a man in a white Geo Tracker stopped beside them on the curb, got
out of his car and started following them, according to the report.
The man grabbed one of the girls from behind, picked her up and began carrying her to his car, telling her to be quiet.
Remembering a canister of Mace in her pocket, her friend followed them and temporarily blinded the man with several spurts. He dropped the girl and sped away in
his car from the intersection of High Basin and White Tail roads.
"Luckily, she just kept her wits about her," police Sgt. Ernest Celaya said.
The girls ran about three blocks to the house of the victim's father, who became enraged when he heard their story. Celaya said both girls live nearby.
About a mile from the attack, at an Exxon station at Callaghan and Ingram roads, employees saw a man in a white Geo Tracker walk into the store rubbing his swollen
eyes and crying.
"He couldn't stop messing with his face," said Edward Zertuche, 23, a station attendant. "It was real obvious he was all messed up, like he was in pain. I thought
maybe he was on some drugs."
Zertuche said the man told him police had sprayed him with Mace. He then went to the bathroom to wash his face.
He said the man was at the station for about 20 minutes, sitting down and apparently trying to recover, when a man who identified himself as the father of one of the
girls walked into the station.
"He said, 'You're the guy that just got Maced by a little girl,'" Zertuche said.
The man denied it before the father took a swing at him, he said.
The two men scuffled, and one of the attendants scribbled down the license plate number on the Geo Tracker before the man jumped in his car and fled.
Police gave the Texas license number as TYB-95L. The car had been registered in Fort Worth but since had been sold, they said.
"What was the intent of picking up a 12-year-old?" asked Lt. Cozette Fogus, director of the police sex crimes unit. "I'm pretty sure it wasn't for a ride around the
block."
Police on Friday continued searching for the man, described as Hispanic, between the ages of 25 and 35, about 5-foot-10 with a stocky build and short hair.
The incident occurred as police continue their search for Adrian Rosales, a Tyler man wanted in the attempted kidnapping of a child at the DoubleTree Hotel on the
city's North Side on Aug. 13.
A man hit that girl over the head with a crowbar, but the girl escaped and told her uncle, who held Rosales until police arrived. Rosales later fled after posting bail.
His father, Jose Hernandez Rosales, has been arrested after police said he had hidden a computer belonging to his son. Authorities say the elder Rosales has not
been cooperating with them.
Fogus said education and increased awareness are helping to keep children safe.
"Parents or teachers have done some good education," she said. "You should fight, scream and run for help."
San Antonio Express-News
August 28, 1999
Girl uses Mace to foil kidnapping of friend
By Karisa King; Express-News Staff Writer
Section: Metro / South Texas
Edition: Metro
Page: 4B
Estimated Printed Pages: 2
Index Terms:
News - Local
Article Text:
A 12-year-old girl rescued her friend from a potential kidnapper by repeatedly spraying his eyes with Mace, police said.
Meanwhile, authorities statewide continue to look for another man wanted in an attempted kidnapping about two weeks ago in San Antonio.
In Sunday's incident, the girls, both 12, were walking in a North West side neighborhood when a man in a white Geo Tracker stopped beside them on the curb, got
out of his car and started following them, according to the report.
The man grabbed one of the girls from behind, picked her up and began carrying her to his car, telling her to be quiet.
Remembering a canister of Mace in her pocket, her friend followed them and temporarily blinded the man with several spurts. He dropped the girl and sped away in
his car from the intersection of High Basin and White Tail roads.
"Luckily, she just kept her wits about her," police Sgt. Ernest Celaya said.
The girls ran about three blocks to the house of the victim's father, who became enraged when he heard their story. Celaya said both girls live nearby.
About a mile from the attack, at an Exxon station at Callaghan and Ingram roads, employees saw a man in a white Geo Tracker walk into the store rubbing his swollen
eyes and crying.
"He couldn't stop messing with his face," said Edward Zertuche, 23, a station attendant. "It was real obvious he was all messed up, like he was in pain. I thought
maybe he was on some drugs."
Zertuche said the man told him police had sprayed him with Mace. He then went to the bathroom to wash his face.
He said the man was at the station for about 20 minutes, sitting down and apparently trying to recover, when a man who identified himself as the father of one of the
girls walked into the station.
"He said, 'You're the guy that just got Maced by a little girl,'" Zertuche said.
The man denied it before the father took a swing at him, he said.
The two men scuffled, and one of the attendants scribbled down the license plate number on the Geo Tracker before the man jumped in his car and fled.
Police gave the Texas license number as TYB-95L. The car had been registered in Fort Worth but since had been sold, they said.
"What was the intent of picking up a 12-year-old?" asked Lt. Cozette Fogus, director of the police sex crimes unit. "I'm pretty sure it wasn't for a ride around the
block."
Police on Friday continued searching for the man, described as Hispanic, between the ages of 25 and 35, about 5-foot-10 with a stocky build and short hair.
The incident occurred as police continue their search for Adrian Rosales, a Tyler man wanted in the attempted kidnapping of a child at the DoubleTree Hotel on the
city's North Side on Aug. 13.
A man hit that girl over the head with a crowbar, but the girl escaped and told her uncle, who held Rosales until police arrived. Rosales later fled after posting bail.
His father, Jose Hernandez Rosales, has been arrested after police said he had hidden a computer belonging to his son. Authorities say the elder Rosales has not
been cooperating with them.
Fogus said education and increased awareness are helping to keep children safe.
"Parents or teachers have done some good education," she said. "You should fight, scream and run for help."
"A man hit that girl over the head with a crowbar, but the girl escaped and told her uncle, who held Rosales until police arrived. Rosales later fled after posting bail.
Jesus H.
What the hell is the matter with the judiciary there? That DA/judge's name should be spread all over the papers so they can be
"reminded" so strongly they won't pull this crap again.
And then at election time . . .
Jesus H.
What the hell is the matter with the judiciary there? That DA/judge's name should be spread all over the papers so they can be
"reminded" so strongly they won't pull this crap again.
And then at election time . . .
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
He posted bail with his credit card by the way.
The hotel where the crowbar incident occurred is a very nice one and one I frequent quite a bit. We put people there on business. I could have run into this dude. That would have been a shame.
Don't want to go OT on Australia, just wanted to give them a reference.
The hotel where the crowbar incident occurred is a very nice one and one I frequent quite a bit. We put people there on business. I could have run into this dude. That would have been a shame.
Don't want to go OT on Australia, just wanted to give them a reference.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruce in West Oz:
I didn't see this article anywhere here ... and it's about my hometown.
However, as I understand it, the situation is:
• No-one can routinely carry pepper spray (except the Police Service) but if someone is caught carrying it and can exhibit a legitimate need , they won't be charged. Example: A pizza delivery woman was recently attacked when she went to deliver a pizza at night. Her employer had "issued" her with a pepper spray, for obvious reasons. She whacked the BG with it, and he was subsequently arrested by police. The police said they could, under the legislation, have charged her and her employer, but they wouldn't because she had a "need" to carry it.
• "Ordinary" security guards can't carry pepper spray OR nightsticks (both deemed offensive weapons). The guards in the big shopping centres (malls) used to carry handcuffs, but these have gone, too. Maybe someone complained. B-I-G torches are very popular, however
• Certain security guards, especially those dealing with cash, are trained and licensed to carry firearms -- usually openly but concealed is also allowed under limited circumstances (e.g. the "guards" at the Casino). These are issue guns and can not be taken off duty.
B[/quote]
I do not understand Oz laws. Anything can be considered an offensive weapon. What if someone is carrying a sharp pencil?
I didn't see this article anywhere here ... and it's about my hometown.
However, as I understand it, the situation is:
• No-one can routinely carry pepper spray (except the Police Service) but if someone is caught carrying it and can exhibit a legitimate need , they won't be charged. Example: A pizza delivery woman was recently attacked when she went to deliver a pizza at night. Her employer had "issued" her with a pepper spray, for obvious reasons. She whacked the BG with it, and he was subsequently arrested by police. The police said they could, under the legislation, have charged her and her employer, but they wouldn't because she had a "need" to carry it.
• "Ordinary" security guards can't carry pepper spray OR nightsticks (both deemed offensive weapons). The guards in the big shopping centres (malls) used to carry handcuffs, but these have gone, too. Maybe someone complained. B-I-G torches are very popular, however
• Certain security guards, especially those dealing with cash, are trained and licensed to carry firearms -- usually openly but concealed is also allowed under limited circumstances (e.g. the "guards" at the Casino). These are issue guns and can not be taken off duty.
B[/quote]
I do not understand Oz laws. Anything can be considered an offensive weapon. What if someone is carrying a sharp pencil?
Reminds me of "Peter, Paul & Mary." "When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?" The answer is, "NEVER."
Most governments had much rather an innocent person be injured or die than a "criminal." People who are denied a "viable" means of self-defense should be permitted to sue their government for mega bucks.
"The men of old were brave and bold
and bared their necks to axes.
The men today do as there told
and meekly pay their taxes."
It is unfortunate the courts have not construed the "right to privacy" to include carrying a firearm.
Criminals continue to have more rights than the victim. What we need is a three day waiting period to commit a crime, not a waiting period to buy a gun.
Most governments had much rather an innocent person be injured or die than a "criminal." People who are denied a "viable" means of self-defense should be permitted to sue their government for mega bucks.
"The men of old were brave and bold
and bared their necks to axes.
The men today do as there told
and meekly pay their taxes."
It is unfortunate the courts have not construed the "right to privacy" to include carrying a firearm.
Criminals continue to have more rights than the victim. What we need is a three day waiting period to commit a crime, not a waiting period to buy a gun.
Oatka posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"A man hit that girl over the head with a crowbar, but the girl escaped and told her uncle, who held Rosales until police arrived. Rosales later fled after posting bail. [/quote]
Critters have 8th Amendment rights, too. Unfortunately.
It is rather heartening to see that daddies and uncles still take their jobs seriously in the Lone Star State. It's even more heartening to see that no mention was made of prosecuting the daddy who decked the critter or the uncle who apparently did likewise.
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited June 29, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"A man hit that girl over the head with a crowbar, but the girl escaped and told her uncle, who held Rosales until police arrived. Rosales later fled after posting bail. [/quote]
Critters have 8th Amendment rights, too. Unfortunately.
It is rather heartening to see that daddies and uncles still take their jobs seriously in the Lone Star State. It's even more heartening to see that no mention was made of prosecuting the daddy who decked the critter or the uncle who apparently did likewise.
LawDog
[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited June 29, 2000).]
Bruce in West Oz
New member
swampgator:
ALL the major political parties (and there's basically only 2, maybe 3) are vehemently anti-gun. Any pro-gun independent(s) we vote in simply get "swamped" in parliament, unless by some freak they hold the balance of power, where their vote tips the scales either way.
Tax rates:
Everything changes tomorrow (Saturday 1 July) when we introduce a GST (Goods and Services Tax) in Australia. The GST is 10%, basically on everything except fresh food and some clothing. In return we get tax cuts -- my rate at present is 48¢ in the $1; from tomorrow it goes to 30¢ in the $1 -- but it's on a sliding scale so it's not as good as it sounds. I'll take home about another $30 a week.
The good part is that the 25% sales tax on firearms and related items will go, replaced by a 10% GST. In actual money terms, they will be cheaper. (Except our illustrious Prime Minister has threatened that if that's the case he'll add a 25% "luxury tax" on top of the GST to ensure gun prices go up and not down.)
HankB
One of my father's friends was a security guard on an armoured truck, dealing with huge amounts of cash. During his training, they were teaching them to draw and fire their revolvers. He made himself unpopular by asking if they could just show him how to draw and lay it on the ground ...
Battler
Is Gunscrubber in an aerosol can? If so, you could be asked by police to justify carrying it on your person. Under the law, it would be regarded as a "weapon" and you could be charged.
Oleg
Rule .303? I agree, but look where it led Breaker Morant!!
EricM
The laws are deliberately vague so they can be applied to the widest possible situation. Basically, the police can (note: just "can" -- it's not like it happens every day!) say almost anything is a weapon -- you have to justify why you have it. Can of hairspray; "rat-tail" comb; pocket knife; baseball bat ... This applies to carry in your vehicle as well as on your person. Search warrants are not required for vehicle searches, nor is "probable cause". If they want to, they can just pull you over and go through the lot.
B
ALL the major political parties (and there's basically only 2, maybe 3) are vehemently anti-gun. Any pro-gun independent(s) we vote in simply get "swamped" in parliament, unless by some freak they hold the balance of power, where their vote tips the scales either way.
Tax rates:
Everything changes tomorrow (Saturday 1 July) when we introduce a GST (Goods and Services Tax) in Australia. The GST is 10%, basically on everything except fresh food and some clothing. In return we get tax cuts -- my rate at present is 48¢ in the $1; from tomorrow it goes to 30¢ in the $1 -- but it's on a sliding scale so it's not as good as it sounds. I'll take home about another $30 a week.
The good part is that the 25% sales tax on firearms and related items will go, replaced by a 10% GST. In actual money terms, they will be cheaper. (Except our illustrious Prime Minister has threatened that if that's the case he'll add a 25% "luxury tax" on top of the GST to ensure gun prices go up and not down.)
HankB
One of my father's friends was a security guard on an armoured truck, dealing with huge amounts of cash. During his training, they were teaching them to draw and fire their revolvers. He made himself unpopular by asking if they could just show him how to draw and lay it on the ground ...
Battler
Is Gunscrubber in an aerosol can? If so, you could be asked by police to justify carrying it on your person. Under the law, it would be regarded as a "weapon" and you could be charged.
Oleg
Rule .303? I agree, but look where it led Breaker Morant!!
EricM
The laws are deliberately vague so they can be applied to the widest possible situation. Basically, the police can (note: just "can" -- it's not like it happens every day!) say almost anything is a weapon -- you have to justify why you have it. Can of hairspray; "rat-tail" comb; pocket knife; baseball bat ... This applies to carry in your vehicle as well as on your person. Search warrants are not required for vehicle searches, nor is "probable cause". If they want to, they can just pull you over and go through the lot.
B
Daniel from oZ
Inactive
Bruce, are you happy with the current gun laws in our mixed up country?
Does the fact that you will prolly' never be able to own a FN FAl or a H&K 91 make you a little mad?
Does the fact that you will prolly' never be able to own a FN FAl or a H&K 91 make you a little mad?
I wonder, at what point will axe handles be banned. Or, the perverbial knife and fork.
Stones, I presume are on the list as well.
Autos need to be, as do railroads, airplanes, all manner of boats. Electricity is dangerous, and needs to be banned.
Matches are definitely a bad, bad thing.
Alcoholic beverages are too dangerous to be allowed access to.
Why even a comb or hairbrush is dangerous.
And tootbrushes, oh my. You could poke an eye out with one of those.
Dental floss could be used to garott someone.
Eyeglasses need banned as well. The lenses could be used to focus the heat on an ant, and deny it it's Civil Rights...
Hearing aids, of course, will be banned because they require batteries, and these things are powerful, and evil in nature.
You won't be able to plant a garden in your lot anymore.. You're destroying the delicate Ecosystem in that little universe. You'll have to knaw on the droppings from more valuable species.
If you try to harm the rat trying to eat your meager food stuffs, you'll be persecuted, and punished. You'll likely be forced into servitude for the remainder of your years.
And all this unfortunate punishment because we never went out and hugged a tree...
Best Regards,
Don
------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."
Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
[This message has been edited by Donny (edited June 30, 2000).]
Stones, I presume are on the list as well.
Autos need to be, as do railroads, airplanes, all manner of boats. Electricity is dangerous, and needs to be banned.
Matches are definitely a bad, bad thing.
Alcoholic beverages are too dangerous to be allowed access to.
Why even a comb or hairbrush is dangerous.
And tootbrushes, oh my. You could poke an eye out with one of those.
Dental floss could be used to garott someone.
Eyeglasses need banned as well. The lenses could be used to focus the heat on an ant, and deny it it's Civil Rights...
Hearing aids, of course, will be banned because they require batteries, and these things are powerful, and evil in nature.
You won't be able to plant a garden in your lot anymore.. You're destroying the delicate Ecosystem in that little universe. You'll have to knaw on the droppings from more valuable species.
If you try to harm the rat trying to eat your meager food stuffs, you'll be persecuted, and punished. You'll likely be forced into servitude for the remainder of your years.
And all this unfortunate punishment because we never went out and hugged a tree...
Best Regards,
Don
------------------
The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
-----------------
"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."
Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR
[This message has been edited by Donny (edited June 30, 2000).]
Bruce, I hate to tell you this, but you're gonna get screwed with that new tax.
Note those bozos didn't eliminate the old tax, just reduce it. In the coming years they will incrementally increase the old one back to it's old level or even higher.
They will probably do that to the new one too.
The comment about the vague laws is scary. Our Bill of Rights was written so that (theoretically) we wouldn't have to depend upon the good will of whoever was in power for our rights.
It appears that exactly where you are with the definition of "weapons".
"By m'lord's will" was the old version.
Note those bozos didn't eliminate the old tax, just reduce it. In the coming years they will incrementally increase the old one back to it's old level or even higher.
They will probably do that to the new one too.
The comment about the vague laws is scary. Our Bill of Rights was written so that (theoretically) we wouldn't have to depend upon the good will of whoever was in power for our rights.
It appears that exactly where you are with the definition of "weapons".
"By m'lord's will" was the old version.