Attention: Colorado Muzzleloader hunters
- Thread starter FirstFreedom
- Start date
Actually, CraigC, there was no name-calling involved.
I could care less about the strawman argument of the coonskin cap. I did, however, call you and yours intolerant of other shooters and hunters. Those bigoted and intolerant shooters have earned the moniker of "Elmer Fudd" over the last year or so, just Google the term along with "Zumbo" for an explanation.
That quality, in and of itself, is not considered a Good Thing with respect to bringing younger hunters and shooters online. We are often our own worst enemies in that regard, and folks wonder why there's no new blood afield. Well, some do - I have a pretty good idea of what's turning them away.
I'm actually ashamed to see such stuff online, it's as if we never learn. I see it on the Goex forums, other BP forums, and now here. Before one gets all hot under the collar and defensive over their sacred muzzleloading "rights" as issued by a state's Department of Natural Resources, they should really ask Jim Zumbo how the intolerance thing worked for him. Then read what was posted in this thread already, including the fine specimen of intolerance and hatred in the latest post. Very nice to see that on a popular firearms forum, and it certainly portrays our sporting hobby in a good light, doesn't it?
BTW, I've got centerfire smokeless rifles, blackpowder cartridge rifles, flintlocks, and percussion rifles. I'd be very careful of assigning motives to people for why they buy a given rifle. I bought my muzzleloaders to shoot, either at the range or hunting. I did NOT, however, buy them to take advantage of a special season, and I chafe at the insinuation. Now, unlike some here, I'm more than happy to welcome another front-stuffer to MY deer woods this muzzleloading season, and I don't get my panties in a wad if he's shooting a scoped inline, a matchlock, or a new CVA Electra. I'm not that selfish or shallow, the deer woods will accommodate all of us just fine, thank you very much. I'm also very much aware that scoped Whitworth muzzleloaders were used by the Confederates in the Civil War to good effect, and the inline ignition muzzleloader was invented in the early 1800's. If one were to pick nits, I'd wager that's pretty much as primitive as the various percussion guns already out there. Go figure, everything old is new again.
I suppose if one searched prehistoric cave art long enough, they'd find a painting where Ogg is seriously torqued that Lar has upgraded from a sharp stick to an atlatl, ruining the whole primitive cave bear hunting season...
I could care less about the strawman argument of the coonskin cap. I did, however, call you and yours intolerant of other shooters and hunters. Those bigoted and intolerant shooters have earned the moniker of "Elmer Fudd" over the last year or so, just Google the term along with "Zumbo" for an explanation.
That quality, in and of itself, is not considered a Good Thing with respect to bringing younger hunters and shooters online. We are often our own worst enemies in that regard, and folks wonder why there's no new blood afield. Well, some do - I have a pretty good idea of what's turning them away.
I'm actually ashamed to see such stuff online, it's as if we never learn. I see it on the Goex forums, other BP forums, and now here. Before one gets all hot under the collar and defensive over their sacred muzzleloading "rights" as issued by a state's Department of Natural Resources, they should really ask Jim Zumbo how the intolerance thing worked for him. Then read what was posted in this thread already, including the fine specimen of intolerance and hatred in the latest post. Very nice to see that on a popular firearms forum, and it certainly portrays our sporting hobby in a good light, doesn't it?
BTW, I've got centerfire smokeless rifles, blackpowder cartridge rifles, flintlocks, and percussion rifles. I'd be very careful of assigning motives to people for why they buy a given rifle. I bought my muzzleloaders to shoot, either at the range or hunting. I did NOT, however, buy them to take advantage of a special season, and I chafe at the insinuation. Now, unlike some here, I'm more than happy to welcome another front-stuffer to MY deer woods this muzzleloading season, and I don't get my panties in a wad if he's shooting a scoped inline, a matchlock, or a new CVA Electra. I'm not that selfish or shallow, the deer woods will accommodate all of us just fine, thank you very much. I'm also very much aware that scoped Whitworth muzzleloaders were used by the Confederates in the Civil War to good effect, and the inline ignition muzzleloader was invented in the early 1800's. If one were to pick nits, I'd wager that's pretty much as primitive as the various percussion guns already out there. Go figure, everything old is new again.
I suppose if one searched prehistoric cave art long enough, they'd find a painting where Ogg is seriously torqued that Lar has upgraded from a sharp stick to an atlatl, ruining the whole primitive cave bear hunting season...
The Zumbo reference is not appreciated and not accurate. This is not a message of "hate". You may see it that way but that is your problem. I have no problem at all with what people choose to hunt with. You can hunt with spoons for all I care. I just don't believe that modern muzzleloaders belong in the muzzleloader-only season. Like it or not, that is NOT what was intended. Just as I don't believe anyone should sneak into the woods with a rifle during archery season. Legalities aside, I see little ethical difference between the two. Hell, when not using a muzzleloader, I hunt with iron sighted leverguns and sixguns. Two types of firearms that are more limited than the modern muzzleloader for the first shot. Let alone the modern scoped bolt rifle. I have no problem sharing 'my' woods with those guns while I hunt with such archaic and limited equipment. There is no special season for those guns and I do not cry for one. I will probably hunt with the muzzleloader throughout the general gun season. The muzzleloader season here is only one week, scheduled just before general gun and then one more week during general gun. It's too much fun to limit myself to just those two short weeks. That my friends, is my choice.
However, if there IS a special season for more primitive weapons, it should be limited to just that. Regardless of why 'you' buy them, that is the reason why most hunters buy them and that is the only reason they exist. To take advantage of loose rules for what was intended to be a primitive weapons season. What you have to realize is that shooters and hunters who are interested and committed enough to participate in shooting forums are in the extreme minority. Your ideas and preferences do not apply to the average hunter who does very little if any shooting and only owns a few guns.
What we should be squalling about is archery season being so long. While general gun is only four weeks and muzzleloader only two. Archery-only is a total of seven weeks. But we're not and probably won't.
However, if there IS a special season for more primitive weapons, it should be limited to just that. Regardless of why 'you' buy them, that is the reason why most hunters buy them and that is the only reason they exist. To take advantage of loose rules for what was intended to be a primitive weapons season. What you have to realize is that shooters and hunters who are interested and committed enough to participate in shooting forums are in the extreme minority. Your ideas and preferences do not apply to the average hunter who does very little if any shooting and only owns a few guns.
What we should be squalling about is archery season being so long. While general gun is only four weeks and muzzleloader only two. Archery-only is a total of seven weeks. But we're not and probably won't.
CraigC said:
Well, no I really don't think I'm some kind of special exception to the rule. I teach the muzzleloader section of our state-required hunter safety education course, and in that capacity I think I'm pretty well informed as to what hunters in my neck of the woods think. We're a pretty diverse group, kind of 'it takes all kinds', and I really don't accept generalizations about any of them.
You ask how many inline shooters have more than a handful of guns and more than a passing interest in recreational shooting - well, in my experience, the same as the 'number' (meaning percentage) of caplock shooters or centerfire rifle shooters. Does that mean something to you - I fail to understand the point of the question.
You then ask how many are simply hunters who don't fire more than a couple of shots a year - again, in my experience, the same percentages apply. What does that prove?
Next you ask how many are happy to take advantage of the special muzzleloader season without going to 'all that trouble' - I have a hard time understanding this question (all what trouble - what are you trying to say, that it's less 'trouble' to shoot an inline somehow?), but I will say that a very large percentage of inline shooters are happy there is a muzzleloader season, probably about the same percentage of caplock shooters. What is the point of that?
The question, "What's the difference between using blackpowder substitute pellets and saboted jacketed bullets with a 4-12x scope and your trusty old .30/06 loaded with one round, with an extra round in each sock?" I cannot answer. I don't know. I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.
Likewise your final questions, "What does it say about me if I own twice as many guns as you do but only four that use blackpowder? Surely it does not mean I am a buckskin jacket, coon skin hat-wearing, son of David Crockett elitist???" leave me puzzled. I don't know what it says about you, except perhaps that you enjoy shooting sports in some manner. I don't get the remarks about being an elitist - the guns you own don't make any statement about that, only your remarks do. Or don't, depending on what they are.
Perhaps the familiar Twain/Lincoln/Eliot/et al quote applies?
Well, no I really don't think I'm some kind of special exception to the rule. I teach the muzzleloader section of our state-required hunter safety education course, and in that capacity I think I'm pretty well informed as to what hunters in my neck of the woods think. We're a pretty diverse group, kind of 'it takes all kinds', and I really don't accept generalizations about any of them.
You ask how many inline shooters have more than a handful of guns and more than a passing interest in recreational shooting - well, in my experience, the same as the 'number' (meaning percentage) of caplock shooters or centerfire rifle shooters. Does that mean something to you - I fail to understand the point of the question.
You then ask how many are simply hunters who don't fire more than a couple of shots a year - again, in my experience, the same percentages apply. What does that prove?
Next you ask how many are happy to take advantage of the special muzzleloader season without going to 'all that trouble' - I have a hard time understanding this question (all what trouble - what are you trying to say, that it's less 'trouble' to shoot an inline somehow?), but I will say that a very large percentage of inline shooters are happy there is a muzzleloader season, probably about the same percentage of caplock shooters. What is the point of that?
The question, "What's the difference between using blackpowder substitute pellets and saboted jacketed bullets with a 4-12x scope and your trusty old .30/06 loaded with one round, with an extra round in each sock?" I cannot answer. I don't know. I have no idea what you're trying to get at here.
Likewise your final questions, "What does it say about me if I own twice as many guns as you do but only four that use blackpowder? Surely it does not mean I am a buckskin jacket, coon skin hat-wearing, son of David Crockett elitist???" leave me puzzled. I don't know what it says about you, except perhaps that you enjoy shooting sports in some manner. I don't get the remarks about being an elitist - the guns you own don't make any statement about that, only your remarks do. Or don't, depending on what they are.
Perhaps the familiar Twain/Lincoln/Eliot/et al quote applies?
FirstFreedom
Moderator
Now THAT is funny!
If everyone followed that line of thought, then slavery would still be legal, only male property owners would be allowed to vote and women still wouldn't have the right to vote.
What does it matter what was originally intended when laws and customs are changed every day and State Legislatures & their Committees meet annually to approve new hunting laws? Are there any states that haven't had an adequate chance to study and to react to the new BP technologies & products within a very short time after they emerged and to outlaw them?
If states only allowed what was originally intended, then we'd still have market hunting with punt guns that are akin to hunting with a cannon.
Some reactionary folks just wish they could put time and technological advancements back into Pandora's Box while claiming that it wasn't originally intended, like something was blindly stolen from them. Well "like it or not", what does it matter that MA originally only allowed smoothbores, or PA only allowed flintlocks in their muzzle loading seasons? Every state practices "Representative Democracy" and makes their own choices, and aren't subject to an arbitrary king.
The American hunting tradition isn't as elitist as most of Europe's is.
Most people don't consider rifled barrels and percussion guns too modern for use in their state's BP season simply because they weren't originally intended.
Most people generally recognize that times change and progress advances.
I don't like the insinuation that any American Vet who comes home from war and goes and enjoys BP hunting with their modern equipment are sneaking around doing something that they didn't serve & fight for and which isn't absolutely ethical and lawfully intended.
Hey, like it or not, we've come a long way baby, and that's they way, uh huh, uh huh, we like it, uh huh, uh huh!
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When I see a hunter, regardless of what he carries in his hand, I'm thankful that for whatever reason, he didn't become an anti hunter.
If we had a deer shortage, I might dredge up some irritation for those who take advantage of technology which makes their equipment trump mine, on the grounds that success for them increases my chances for failure. Where I live, though, we have deer for all, and more besides.
Laws come and go, seasons, methods and limits change, but the number of hunters, per capita, seems to always be in decline, which bodes ill for the future of the sport.
If we COULD get a stone ax season, and thereby entice some of those crazyflintknappers to become first time hunters, I'd go for it.
Steve
If we had a deer shortage, I might dredge up some irritation for those who take advantage of technology which makes their equipment trump mine, on the grounds that success for them increases my chances for failure. Where I live, though, we have deer for all, and more besides.
Laws come and go, seasons, methods and limits change, but the number of hunters, per capita, seems to always be in decline, which bodes ill for the future of the sport.
If we COULD get a stone ax season, and thereby entice some of those crazy
flintknappers to become first time hunters, I'd go for it.Steve
So is this discussion about muzzleloaders? Because on the other side it always seems to go to stone axes and public relations. Now it's about slavery, voting rights, veterans, elitism and now we're singing songs?
They only point I am trying to make is you take a special hunting season, here only two friggin' weeks, and set it aside for primitive weapons (relatively speaking). When you allow guns that effectively close the gap between 150yr old technology and modern, scoped bolt action centerfires, what's the point? When you have modern materials, modern pelletized propellants, modern projectiles, modern optical sights, modern ignition and modern synthetic stocks, do you not have a modern rifle?
Compound bows still require the hunter to "hunt". No one will argue that bowhunting requires an entirely different level of commitment. Traditional muzzleloaders require hunters to "hunt". No one will argue that these too, require a higher level of commitment. Modern inline muzzleloaders allow hunters to "snipe" out past 200yds. Here we enter the realm of the modern rifle. The lack of a brass cartridge casing does NOT preclude it from being a modern rifle.
They only point I am trying to make is you take a special hunting season, here only two friggin' weeks, and set it aside for primitive weapons (relatively speaking). When you allow guns that effectively close the gap between 150yr old technology and modern, scoped bolt action centerfires, what's the point? When you have modern materials, modern pelletized propellants, modern projectiles, modern optical sights, modern ignition and modern synthetic stocks, do you not have a modern rifle?
Compound bows still require the hunter to "hunt". No one will argue that bowhunting requires an entirely different level of commitment. Traditional muzzleloaders require hunters to "hunt". No one will argue that these too, require a higher level of commitment. Modern inline muzzleloaders allow hunters to "snipe" out past 200yds. Here we enter the realm of the modern rifle. The lack of a brass cartridge casing does NOT preclude it from being a modern rifle.
riddleofsteel
New member
Another log on this campfire;
That argument does not hold water.
I know and understand that you think a muzzleloader should be a circa 1830 to 1865 period weapon.
OK I hear your screams.
The simple fact is that in the eyes of the state and the law. A rifle that loads from the muzzle is a muzzleloader. It does not matter if it burns rocket fuel is made of titanium and uses diamond for a bullet. When enough concerned citizens request restrictions on the MUZZLELOADER SEASON the Wildlife Commission in that state will hold hearings and vote on it. I suggest you go to those hearings. If we have one in NC you can bet I will be there as the voice of reason on my end.
Now THAT is an argument that does not stand up to scrutiny! Are we going to compare wartime sniper tactics with ethical hunting practices? Since our Marine Corps and Army snipers shoot people over 1000yds with .308's shall we start shooting deer at those ranges with similar rifles? Did you actually put any thought into that?
I've said all I'm going to on this subject, although I'm easily baited. I'm not gonna change my mind or anybody else's. I've gotten that off my chest, I'll leave you guys to discuss what an elitist follower of Zumbo I am. Elmer Fudd or whatever else, I'll sleep well and be in the woods in the morning.
riddleofsteel
New member
Fact is I don't "snipe" deer at 200 yards with my smokeless muzzleloader. I limit myself to what I have proven I can do with my rifle under field conditions.
You brought up what the equipment was capable of doing as a measure of "primitive."
"Primitive" flintlock Kentucky rifles were and still are fully capable of the 200 yard plus killing shots on people or animals.
Fact is that it is the man not the gun that limits what is ethical no matter what the season.
The average hunter has no business shooting at game animals much over 100 yards anyway. I doubt 10% of hunters could pass a field condition qualification test, shooting off hand at 200 yards with any weapon system modern or primitive.
Oh by the way I have enjoyed exchanging ideas and opinions on this subject. I never had any illusion of changing anyone's mind I just enjoy a lively exchange of ideas.
Peace
You brought up what the equipment was capable of doing as a measure of "primitive."
"Primitive" flintlock Kentucky rifles were and still are fully capable of the 200 yard plus killing shots on people or animals.
Fact is that it is the man not the gun that limits what is ethical no matter what the season.
The average hunter has no business shooting at game animals much over 100 yards anyway. I doubt 10% of hunters could pass a field condition qualification test, shooting off hand at 200 yards with any weapon system modern or primitive.
Oh by the way I have enjoyed exchanging ideas and opinions on this subject. I never had any illusion of changing anyone's mind I just enjoy a lively exchange of ideas.
Peace
Raider2000
New member
This is taken from the Virginia Department of Game & Inland Fisheries sight.
Legal Methods and Restrictions During Muzzleloader Deer Seasons
Special restrictions apply to specific firearms use during this season. See Legal Use of Firearms and Archery Equipment and Local Firearms Ordinances for details.
Muzzleloading firearms only.
Muzzleloading guns must be single shot flintlock or percussion ignition, excluding muzzleloading pistols.
Must be .45 caliber or larger.
Scopes permitted.
Must be able to fire only a single bullet or saboted bullet (.38 caliber or larger projectile).
Must be loaded from the muzzle of the gun.
Must use at least 50 grains of black powder or black powder equivalent.
Smokeless powder is allowed in muzzleloading weapons designed for it. Never use smokeless powder of any type, in any quantity, in a muzzleloading firearm that is not specifically designed for it.
For the purposes of transportation in a vehicle, muzzleloading firearms are considered "unloaded" when all powder has been removed from the flashpan, or the percussion cap has been removed from the nipple. For complete safety, a muzzleloader should be emptied by shooting into soft ground.
Unlawful to have in immediate possession any firearm other than a muzzleloading gun while hunting with a muzzleloader (see exception for concealed handguns).
Unlawful to hunt deer with dogs.
Unlawful to use muzzleloading pistols.
Now for years I've never really used a muzzleloader for hunting being sattisfied with using my Archery equipment during the Muzzle Loading season "it is legal to do that in Virginia" & being that my only options were either my grandfathers .54 caliber Hawken or my repro. .58 caliber Zuave "both of which would break my heart if anything happened to them being that they were both my grand fathers & the Hawken in particular was built by him" but this year I did buy a .50 caliber Traditions Yukon inline to actually use during the muzzle loading season & during the regular firearm season.
Let me explain....
I do own 4 center fire hand guns, 1 rim fire hand gun, 1 rim fire rifle, 2 centerfire rifles, & 1 centerfire shotgun, outside of the above mentioned muzzleloaders I do own also 5 "now" muzzleloading revolvers, & from time to time I do take them out to do some informal shooting but my passion for the last 20 years have been Archery & being that I had rejoined the ASA 2 years ago my tournaments & time at work & what not prevent me from getting the type of shooting that I think should be accomplished "to my standards" for me to attempt to take any animal with any of the more modern weapons at my disposal but being that don't have that type of time to get my picky butt sattisfied enough to be that precise as I am with my Archery shooting I chose not to.
I personally like the nastalgia of muzzleloading & preferr it over the modern weapons & am trying to aquire the ammount of time to get proficient with the TRaditions Yukon to take it out during hunting season "I didn't this year because of the lack of shooting time for my sattisfaction" but I hope that many here will understand why I bought a inexpensive inline rifle instead of a better more traditional muzzleloader, I do not like the use of Buck Shot on Deer not that there is anything wrong with it just that Buck Shot tears up more of the meat than I appreciate & being that the counties that I hunt in only use Shotgun with Buck Shot I preferr my Archery equipment & possibly my muzzleloader over the next option hence my other reason for me only Archery hunt at the moment.
My reason for posting this is that seeing that many here have their opinions on the subject of primitive firearms & I figured that I may explain myself as to why I did buy a more modern designed CHEAP inline muzzleloader.
Legal Methods and Restrictions During Muzzleloader Deer Seasons
Special restrictions apply to specific firearms use during this season. See Legal Use of Firearms and Archery Equipment and Local Firearms Ordinances for details.
Muzzleloading firearms only.
Muzzleloading guns must be single shot flintlock or percussion ignition, excluding muzzleloading pistols.
Must be .45 caliber or larger.
Scopes permitted.
Must be able to fire only a single bullet or saboted bullet (.38 caliber or larger projectile).
Must be loaded from the muzzle of the gun.
Must use at least 50 grains of black powder or black powder equivalent.
Smokeless powder is allowed in muzzleloading weapons designed for it. Never use smokeless powder of any type, in any quantity, in a muzzleloading firearm that is not specifically designed for it.
For the purposes of transportation in a vehicle, muzzleloading firearms are considered "unloaded" when all powder has been removed from the flashpan, or the percussion cap has been removed from the nipple. For complete safety, a muzzleloader should be emptied by shooting into soft ground.
Unlawful to have in immediate possession any firearm other than a muzzleloading gun while hunting with a muzzleloader (see exception for concealed handguns).
Unlawful to hunt deer with dogs.
Unlawful to use muzzleloading pistols.
Now for years I've never really used a muzzleloader for hunting being sattisfied with using my Archery equipment during the Muzzle Loading season "it is legal to do that in Virginia" & being that my only options were either my grandfathers .54 caliber Hawken or my repro. .58 caliber Zuave "both of which would break my heart if anything happened to them being that they were both my grand fathers & the Hawken in particular was built by him" but this year I did buy a .50 caliber Traditions Yukon inline to actually use during the muzzle loading season & during the regular firearm season.
Let me explain....
I do own 4 center fire hand guns, 1 rim fire hand gun, 1 rim fire rifle, 2 centerfire rifles, & 1 centerfire shotgun, outside of the above mentioned muzzleloaders I do own also 5 "now" muzzleloading revolvers, & from time to time I do take them out to do some informal shooting but my passion for the last 20 years have been Archery & being that I had rejoined the ASA 2 years ago my tournaments & time at work & what not prevent me from getting the type of shooting that I think should be accomplished "to my standards" for me to attempt to take any animal with any of the more modern weapons at my disposal but being that don't have that type of time to get my picky butt sattisfied enough to be that precise as I am with my Archery shooting I chose not to.
I personally like the nastalgia of muzzleloading & preferr it over the modern weapons & am trying to aquire the ammount of time to get proficient with the TRaditions Yukon to take it out during hunting season "I didn't this year because of the lack of shooting time for my sattisfaction" but I hope that many here will understand why I bought a inexpensive inline rifle instead of a better more traditional muzzleloader, I do not like the use of Buck Shot on Deer not that there is anything wrong with it just that Buck Shot tears up more of the meat than I appreciate & being that the counties that I hunt in only use Shotgun with Buck Shot I preferr my Archery equipment & possibly my muzzleloader over the next option hence my other reason for me only Archery hunt at the moment.
My reason for posting this is that seeing that many here have their opinions on the subject of primitive firearms & I figured that I may explain myself as to why I did buy a more modern designed CHEAP inline muzzleloader.
I wish more hunters had such a policy! I know I just don't feel right going to the woods if I'm not comfortable and confident in my weaponry and ability.
As for the rest of your post, I can certainly understand your reasoning. My opinion on this subject probably comes off a bit belligerent so I will apologize to any who were offended by the exchange.
As a side note, I was looking at the Zouve repro at Dixie Gun Works yesterday and just about couldn't put it down. I can definitely see myself getting one sometime in the next year or so, if my blackpowder disease continues to spread. That or the little J.P. Murray carbine, both rifled .58's.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
If you haven't already, be sure to look at this discussion here:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269346
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269346