FirstFreedom
Moderator
for Elk and other game if you get an ML tag....I know smokeless powder is not legal there. But is it LEGAL or ILLEGAL to use BP or BP equivalent in a smokeless-powder muzzleloader like a Savage ML2?
Attention: Colorado Muzzleloader hunters
- Thread starter FirstFreedom
- Start date
FirstFreedom
Moderator
anyone know?
FirstFreedom
Moderator
As a lawyer, reading this, I'm gonna say it's fine:
So you must use (1) LOOSE (2) black powder or BP equivalent, (3) no saboted bullets, and (4) no scopes. But no specific prohibition on a smokeless-powder-CAPABLE rifle, just as there is no prohibition on using inlines.
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/6E977561-C613-466D-BCFC-2CA9C9C91CD9/0/Ch02.pdf
Scroll down to page 3. Ok, then the Savage ML2 is a definite go for launch.
So you must use (1) LOOSE (2) black powder or BP equivalent, (3) no saboted bullets, and (4) no scopes. But no specific prohibition on a smokeless-powder-CAPABLE rifle, just as there is no prohibition on using inlines.
http://wildlife.state.co.us/NR/rdonlyres/6E977561-C613-466D-BCFC-2CA9C9C91CD9/0/Ch02.pdf
Scroll down to page 3. Ok, then the Savage ML2 is a definite go for launch.
It's B.S. There's nothing "primitive" about it. You can use breech loading single shot cartridge guns as long as they're over 40 caliber and have an external hammer. You can even use smokeless and scopes.
I wish they'd go back to the way it used to be. Sidelocks with flint or percussion cap ignition only and no scopes.
I wish they'd go back to the way it used to be. Sidelocks with flint or percussion cap ignition only and no scopes.I find it interesting that the people who complain about 'primitive' hunting season being polluted with modern weapons think caplocks or flintlocks are the standard for primitive weapons. Why not make the standard matchlocks?
If you're going to insist on a 'primitive' standard, make it a real one: stone axes. Otherwise, stop using the word 'primitive'. You may have a good reason for not wanting the more modern in-lines allowed during the muzzleloading season, but so far, the one being used doesn't make sense to me.
If you're going to insist on a 'primitive' standard, make it a real one: stone axes. Otherwise, stop using the word 'primitive'. You may have a good reason for not wanting the more modern in-lines allowed during the muzzleloading season, but so far, the one being used doesn't make sense to me.
riddleofsteel
New member
What it is really about is what the Wildlife Commission in your state will allow.
Some people can and will use all the technology the law allows to aid them in taking game.
If you got a beef go to the hearings and state your case, join an action group and lobby the governing body. That is how we got the muzzle loading seasons to begin with.
Some people can and will use all the technology the law allows to aid them in taking game.
If you got a beef go to the hearings and state your case, join an action group and lobby the governing body. That is how we got the muzzle loading seasons to begin with.
My job here is done.
The gun-owning community was aghast when Zumbo displayed his intolerance for other guns in "his" deer woods.
I'm seeing a lot of the same coming from the front-stuffing crowd, and it smells very similar.
Not good.
They should all be matchlocks, period. Then everybody with wheellocks, flintlocks, percussion, inline, and electric arc ignition can bitch and moan to their heart's content.
The gun-owning community was aghast when Zumbo displayed his intolerance for other guns in "his" deer woods.
I'm seeing a lot of the same coming from the front-stuffing crowd, and it smells very similar.
Not good.
They should all be matchlocks, period. Then everybody with wheellocks, flintlocks, percussion, inline, and electric arc ignition can bitch and moan to their heart's content.
I'd rather see all matchlocks than a "primitive" weapons season that allows scoped handi rifles. What's the point of having a primitive weapons season if you're going to allow these types of guns?
I'm not talking inlines(tho I don't care for them either). I'm talking about breech loading cartridge guns with smokeless powder.
I'm not talking inlines(tho I don't care for them either). I'm talking about breech loading cartridge guns with smokeless powder.Riddleofsteel stated it quite elegantly.
The point of the muzzleloading season is that a given state's Department of Natural Resources has an additional tool in their repertoire' to manage the deer herd even better. A lot of muzzleloading purists would do well to remember that.
There are no inalienable "rights" to a muzzleloading deer season, just a local state government effort to get more deer-killing projectiles out there for a week or so before and/or after centerfire season, mixed in with bow season and whatever else. The more deer that are killed by hunters every fall, the fewer cars (the other deer-killing projectiles) are crumpled on the highways with deer remnants splattered everywhere. If you're in a CWD eradication zone like I am, requirements get seriously relaxed.
Myself, I'm lobbying my local DNR for a Jumping out of Trees with Hatchet onto Unsuspecting Deer season. I figure they'll consider it primitive enough. Guns? We don't need no stinkin' guns!
The point of the muzzleloading season is that a given state's Department of Natural Resources has an additional tool in their repertoire' to manage the deer herd even better. A lot of muzzleloading purists would do well to remember that.
There are no inalienable "rights" to a muzzleloading deer season, just a local state government effort to get more deer-killing projectiles out there for a week or so before and/or after centerfire season, mixed in with bow season and whatever else. The more deer that are killed by hunters every fall, the fewer cars (the other deer-killing projectiles) are crumpled on the highways with deer remnants splattered everywhere. If you're in a CWD eradication zone like I am, requirements get seriously relaxed.
Myself, I'm lobbying my local DNR for a Jumping out of Trees with Hatchet onto Unsuspecting Deer season. I figure they'll consider it primitive enough. Guns? We don't need no stinkin' guns!
I wish they were all even more restrictive than that. The bottom line is that special muzzleloading seasons were started for people who hunt with more primitive weapons, just like the archery season. The modern inline came about AFTER as a way for those who care nothing about primitive weapons to take advantage of the early primitive weapons season. There is nothing "primitive" about them, they are only muzzleloaders in the strict technical sense and are no more trouble to maintain than a modern cartridge rifle. Some even use smokeless powder!!! Now you can go to Walmart and buy a $150 rifle and all the stuff that goes with it so cheaply, everybody is doing it. Of course the inline shooters get their panties in a bunch because such talk threatens their free ride. Like in this thread spouting off about matchlocks. Rightfully so, it certainly should. However their argument does not hold up to scrutiny.
The inline muzzleloader exists ONLY for those not interested in traditional guns to get in on the special season intended for those who DO like to use more traditional weaponry. They exist for no other reason and THAT is the only reason people use them. It wouldn't bother me near as much if they would just own up to it.
Bottom line?
You'll find elitists everywhere.
Now we have muzzleloaders calling other muzzleloaders unacceptable because they may stuff from the front, but don't ignite the same way, crying "Boo-hoo" as if their lunch money was stolen by the playground bully.
Pity, that type of hypocricy running amock.
And we wonder why the gun-owning world is looked upon with derision, with fewer hunters heading into the woods each year.
Didn't we learn anything from the Jim Zumbo fiasco?
Elmer Fudd is alive and well, even on one of the internet's most prominent firearms forums...
You'll find elitists everywhere.
Now we have muzzleloaders calling other muzzleloaders unacceptable because they may stuff from the front, but don't ignite the same way, crying "Boo-hoo" as if their lunch money was stolen by the playground bully.
Pity, that type of hypocricy running amock.
And we wonder why the gun-owning world is looked upon with derision, with fewer hunters heading into the woods each year.
Didn't we learn anything from the Jim Zumbo fiasco?
Elmer Fudd is alive and well, even on one of the internet's most prominent firearms forums...
riddleofsteel
New member
You know, I was one of the guys that lobbied for Special Muzzleloader Season in my state back when its was archery or gun, end of story. The archers that had lobbied years before to get an archery season raised HOLY H*LL because we wanted one week at the end of the two month archery season for muzzleloaders. But we went to the hearings and wrote letters and got results.
In their infinite wisdom the Wildlife Resources Commission decided that the week before regular gun season was to be set aside for muzzleloaders ONLY. No bows, no breech loading firearms. That is the way it still is. As fate would have it this week turned out to be the middle of the primary rut for whitetail deer here in NC.
Back then the only muzzleloading rifles available were replica side locks and flintlocks. Most of them we had to build from kits or have custom made. My CVA kit .45 Kentucky Rifle from those days has long since been delegated to the living room wall. Later my wife purchased a Thompson Center .50 Renegade for my Christmas present. It was a quantum leap forward from the old CVA kit. When they became available I shifted from patched ball to plastic sabots and pistol bullets. Market availability forced me to shift from black powder to Pyrodex. I never bought a Knight style inline. Not because I thought bad of them I just did not feel like spending the money on one.
Later a friend of mine designed and started building muzzleloaders that burned smokeless powder that were based on bolt actions. The muzzleloading world seemed to be passing me by. It got to the point were you could hardly give a side lock muzzleloader away. Oh well, it did not matter to me as my old .50 T/C Renegade kept on killing deer.
Then my son reached the age where he needed a muzzleloader and the time came for me to step up and buy another front stuffer. I thought of my old friend Henry Ball and his smokeless muzzleloaders. Of course by now his invention was being sold as the Savage 10ML II. It is, in my opinion, the safest, most powerful muzzleloader ever designed and sold as a factory made gun. I enjoy its modern safety features and the ease of cleaning.
Does the purchase and use of a Savage 10ML II make me a traitor to the cause I lobbied for so many years ago? Does the use of, dare I say it, SMOKELESS POWDER, in my front stuffer make me the assassin of primitive weapons seasons everywhere? Does the use of this "modern" muzzleloader give me an unnatural and unintended advantage over my brothers and sisters with side locks?
I think not.............
I am a reloader in the field just like I was when I hunted with a flintlock. I have one shot to accomplish my task. Even an archer can fire faster than I can reload my rifle. My effective range is no greater than a young man with sharp eyes can shoot his modern side lock. I have simply done as hunters have done for generations. When the need arose for a new rifle I selected the most effective and modern one I could afford. I am well within the law using this muzzleloader. NC law specifies muzzleloading weapons ONLY during the muzzleloading season.
If you are in love with nostalgia lobby you Wildlife Commission for restrictions that only allow the specific type of weapon you enjoy shooting. While you are at it lets ask them to get rid of all those dern compound bows. You know they are ruining archery season.
LOL
OK I guess that was just mean.
LOL
Enjoy your sport, fight for everyone's hunting rights, get involved in special interest groups that lobby your state government and Wildlife Commission. You can bet the anti-hunters are involved and you can bet so am I.
Myself, I will lobby for enlightened game laws that allow for the hunter to make educated choices on how to take game in the field, within the law.
In their infinite wisdom the Wildlife Resources Commission decided that the week before regular gun season was to be set aside for muzzleloaders ONLY. No bows, no breech loading firearms. That is the way it still is. As fate would have it this week turned out to be the middle of the primary rut for whitetail deer here in NC.
Back then the only muzzleloading rifles available were replica side locks and flintlocks. Most of them we had to build from kits or have custom made. My CVA kit .45 Kentucky Rifle from those days has long since been delegated to the living room wall. Later my wife purchased a Thompson Center .50 Renegade for my Christmas present. It was a quantum leap forward from the old CVA kit. When they became available I shifted from patched ball to plastic sabots and pistol bullets. Market availability forced me to shift from black powder to Pyrodex. I never bought a Knight style inline. Not because I thought bad of them I just did not feel like spending the money on one.
Later a friend of mine designed and started building muzzleloaders that burned smokeless powder that were based on bolt actions. The muzzleloading world seemed to be passing me by. It got to the point were you could hardly give a side lock muzzleloader away. Oh well, it did not matter to me as my old .50 T/C Renegade kept on killing deer.
Then my son reached the age where he needed a muzzleloader and the time came for me to step up and buy another front stuffer. I thought of my old friend Henry Ball and his smokeless muzzleloaders. Of course by now his invention was being sold as the Savage 10ML II. It is, in my opinion, the safest, most powerful muzzleloader ever designed and sold as a factory made gun. I enjoy its modern safety features and the ease of cleaning.
Does the purchase and use of a Savage 10ML II make me a traitor to the cause I lobbied for so many years ago? Does the use of, dare I say it, SMOKELESS POWDER, in my front stuffer make me the assassin of primitive weapons seasons everywhere? Does the use of this "modern" muzzleloader give me an unnatural and unintended advantage over my brothers and sisters with side locks?
I think not.............
I am a reloader in the field just like I was when I hunted with a flintlock. I have one shot to accomplish my task. Even an archer can fire faster than I can reload my rifle. My effective range is no greater than a young man with sharp eyes can shoot his modern side lock. I have simply done as hunters have done for generations. When the need arose for a new rifle I selected the most effective and modern one I could afford. I am well within the law using this muzzleloader. NC law specifies muzzleloading weapons ONLY during the muzzleloading season.
If you are in love with nostalgia lobby you Wildlife Commission for restrictions that only allow the specific type of weapon you enjoy shooting. While you are at it lets ask them to get rid of all those dern compound bows. You know they are ruining archery season.
LOL
OK I guess that was just mean.
LOL
Enjoy your sport, fight for everyone's hunting rights, get involved in special interest groups that lobby your state government and Wildlife Commission. You can bet the anti-hunters are involved and you can bet so am I.
Myself, I will lobby for enlightened game laws that allow for the hunter to make educated choices on how to take game in the field, within the law.
I no longer hunt due to a physical disability. However, I own, and have used a Winchester Model 70 30.06, a Traditions Lightning .50 cal inline muzzleloader, a CVA .45 cal Kentucky caplock rifle and a CVA .50 cal caplock Mountain rifle. I enjoyed hunting with and shooting all 5. Like Gewehr98, I find the complaining about the use of modern inline guns during the season designated for black powder weapons to be immature at best and devisive, possibly damaging, at worst. I agree with his articulation and cannot improve upon it.
CraigC said:
I will not "own up" to your interpretation of other's motives because it's not true. I own 38 firearms. Twelve are smokeless powder cartridge ('modern') guns. Thirteen are percussion cap and ball revolvers. Five are single shot percussion caplock pistols. Four are single shot percussion caplock rifles. Three are percussion caplock shotguns. One is a black powder inline rifle. Does that rifle exist in my collection because I'm "not interested in traditional guns"? Did I take it hunting during the 'primitive/traditional/black powder/muzzleloader/non-smokeless powder season because I don't like to use the four caplock rifles? Do you see how your explanation of other's motives is perhaps not accurate?
Keep crying about the usurpation of 'primitive' season and this is what you're going to get:
Nov 1 through Nov 3: stone axes only
Nov 4 through Nov 6: matchlocks only
Nov 7 through Nov 9: flinlocks only
Nov 10 through Nov 12: percussion sidelocks only
Nov 13 through Nov 15: percussion inlines only
Nov 16 through Nov 18: electronic ignition inlines only
Nov 19 through Nov 21: centerfire smokeless rifles only
Nov 22 through Nov 24: shotguns (smokeless & bp) only
Nov 25 through Nov 27: grenades, RPG's & claymores only
Oh, yes, archery. Well, we'd have to put them in Nov 28 through Nov 31. One day for longbows, one for recurve, one for compound. Crossbows on Dec. 1.
Sherman tanks with less than 105mm main guns on Dec 2...
CraigC said:
I will not "own up" to your interpretation of other's motives because it's not true. I own 38 firearms. Twelve are smokeless powder cartridge ('modern') guns. Thirteen are percussion cap and ball revolvers. Five are single shot percussion caplock pistols. Four are single shot percussion caplock rifles. Three are percussion caplock shotguns. One is a black powder inline rifle. Does that rifle exist in my collection because I'm "not interested in traditional guns"? Did I take it hunting during the 'primitive/traditional/black powder/muzzleloader/non-smokeless powder season because I don't like to use the four caplock rifles? Do you see how your explanation of other's motives is perhaps not accurate?
Keep crying about the usurpation of 'primitive' season and this is what you're going to get:
Nov 1 through Nov 3: stone axes only
Nov 4 through Nov 6: matchlocks only
Nov 7 through Nov 9: flinlocks only
Nov 10 through Nov 12: percussion sidelocks only
Nov 13 through Nov 15: percussion inlines only
Nov 16 through Nov 18: electronic ignition inlines only
Nov 19 through Nov 21: centerfire smokeless rifles only
Nov 22 through Nov 24: shotguns (smokeless & bp) only
Nov 25 through Nov 27: grenades, RPG's & claymores only
Oh, yes, archery. Well, we'd have to put them in Nov 28 through Nov 31. One day for longbows, one for recurve, one for compound. Crossbows on Dec. 1.
Sherman tanks with less than 105mm main guns on Dec 2...
Elitists? Hardly! I didn't even own a muzzleloading rifle until just a couple months ago. Didn't get into blackpowder at all until last year. Been shooting and hunting with modern guns my whole life and felt the way I do long before I got a frontstuffer. Didn't have to own a muzzleloader to understand that the "spirit of the game" did NOT involve big scopes, stainless steel, synthetic stocks, smokeless powder and a +200yd effective range. You'd have to be an idiot to not see that. You'd have to be an idiot not to see that these guns were strictly developed to sneak in under that loophole. Of course you will bring up matchlocks and spears, it detracts from that fact.
Oh yes, I'm sorry, we won't talk about it because it will make us look bad. Way to sidestep the argument.
Elmer Fudd huh, so who is talking about guns and who is resorting to personal insults?
Mykeal, surely you can understand that you are the exception rather than the rule. How many inline shooters do you really think have more than a handful of guns and more than a passing interest in recreational shooting, if any? How many are simply hunters that don't fire more than a couple shots a year? How many are happy to take advantage of the special muzzleloader season without going to "all that trouble"? What's the difference between using blackpowder substitute pellets and saboted jacketed bullets with a 4-12x scope and your trusty old .30/06 loaded with one round, with an extra round in each sock?
What does it say about me if I own twice as many guns as you do but only four that use blackpowder? Surely it does not mean I am a buckskin jacket, coon skin hat-wearing, son of David Crockett elitist???