Atlanta transit police arrest citizen for selling subway token at face value
- Thread starter tyme
- Start date
There are several things with this story that are unknown. I agree that at face value this situation seems out of bounds and ridiculous. What if the copper sees the transaction, goes over to investigate and is told to go screw himself. Mr. Nice citizen is not so nice at all and turns into a complete jack ass, creating a scene and being a general bone head about it?
I make it a general practice to stop every single broken tail light that I see. Why? Becasue I like to screw with people and am on a power trip of course...No, because by definition a tail light is behind you when you are operating your car and you have no way of knowing that it is out unless someone tells you. 95% of the time I do not write a ticket and the encounter lasts all of about 30 seconds. Mr/Mrs decent citizen fall into that 95% category and there is absolutely no reason to write anything. I will guarntee that the next time I see them they have the problem fixed and are appreciative of the way I handled it. If you happen to be driving with a BAC of .20, have a bag of dope laying in plain sight, are a known drug dealer, just got done/on the way to doing a robbery, burglary, car jacking, or have warrants, or decide that I HAVE to have something better to do, like catching real criminals instead of harassing you, then I guess you should do a visual inspection and functionality check of your car before you operate it on a public street and you won't have to worry about such nonsense.
My point is that maybe there is something more to this than just the transaction. We don't know, but sure are quick to jump to cop bashing. I have been there and if the guy turned into an @sshat I would probably have arrested him to. On the other hand, if he was honestly just trying to help a brother out it would be ridiculous to do so.
Steve
I make it a general practice to stop every single broken tail light that I see. Why? Becasue I like to screw with people and am on a power trip of course...No, because by definition a tail light is behind you when you are operating your car and you have no way of knowing that it is out unless someone tells you. 95% of the time I do not write a ticket and the encounter lasts all of about 30 seconds. Mr/Mrs decent citizen fall into that 95% category and there is absolutely no reason to write anything. I will guarntee that the next time I see them they have the problem fixed and are appreciative of the way I handled it. If you happen to be driving with a BAC of .20, have a bag of dope laying in plain sight, are a known drug dealer, just got done/on the way to doing a robbery, burglary, car jacking, or have warrants, or decide that I HAVE to have something better to do, like catching real criminals instead of harassing you, then I guess you should do a visual inspection and functionality check of your car before you operate it on a public street and you won't have to worry about such nonsense.
My point is that maybe there is something more to this than just the transaction. We don't know, but sure are quick to jump to cop bashing. I have been there and if the guy turned into an @sshat I would probably have arrested him to. On the other hand, if he was honestly just trying to help a brother out it would be ridiculous to do so.
Steve
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Steve-
Minor points, but:
1) There is no such situation as perfect information. There isn't a single thread in this forum that provides perfect information; yet we each reserve the right to remark on the info at hand. Even juries don't have "perfect" information.
2) So, even though your common sense would tell you "No Harm, No Foul", you'd exercise your Police Powers against this guy for simple refusal to show you proper respect? How would you feel if ER personnel started using the same standards? Imagine if Free Market businesses were to operate with that mindset. How about utilities?
Rich
Minor points, but:
1) There is no such situation as perfect information. There isn't a single thread in this forum that provides perfect information; yet we each reserve the right to remark on the info at hand. Even juries don't have "perfect" information.
2) So, even though your common sense would tell you "No Harm, No Foul", you'd exercise your Police Powers against this guy for simple refusal to show you proper respect? How would you feel if ER personnel started using the same standards? Imagine if Free Market businesses were to operate with that mindset. How about utilities?
Rich
Ben Swenson
New member
Oh, well then in that case the cop had best break out the baton because if someone is being a jerk to a police officer they deserve whatever they get.
CraZkid,
I feel sorry for you. I try to operate and remember that many of our youth are products of a generation of parents that refuse to be parents. They allow children from birth to do what they want, get what they want, when they want and how they want. The kids rule and are in charge from a tender age and subsequently get frustrated when confronted with any authority figure and they can't be in charge anymore. They refuse to respect themselves, teachers, parents and especially the police. When little Johnny turns 16 and is arrested at 4:00am with a bag of 1000 hits of E that he just drove in to town with in Daddy's Escalade, Daddy doesn't say "where did I go wrong? We have a problem and need to fix it". No, Daddy wants to know what the probable cause for the stop was and why I am picking on poor little Johnny. There are real criminals out there and Daddy will have my job. Blame and responsibility are transfered from poor Johnny to the corrupt police. It really isn't Johnny's fault. It has been this way his entire life and he knows no better.
Your constant reference to the popularity of rap music, violent video games depicting the murder of cops etc...as being evidence of what cops have brought onthemselves is ridiculous, at best, and really does show your immaturity. The popularity of such things is direct evidence of parents failing to set boundaries and saying enough is enough. "I just don't care what little Johnny is doing as long as he isn't screaming at me and telling me to go F myself." I have many friends who are teachers and they are absolutely in a frenzy with the way kids act in school. It is completely out of control. What is it that teachers have done, as a group, to disgruntle the youth and justify them acting like animals? That must also just be an extension of the outrage against police harassment and corruption.
Also, please stop offering your friends that are "studying" to be police officers, as expert witnesses. They are not and know about as much about the realities of being a police officer as I do of being a carpenter, or computer technician. They qualify nothing and it makes you look silly to pretend that they do.
Steve
I feel sorry for you. I try to operate and remember that many of our youth are products of a generation of parents that refuse to be parents. They allow children from birth to do what they want, get what they want, when they want and how they want. The kids rule and are in charge from a tender age and subsequently get frustrated when confronted with any authority figure and they can't be in charge anymore. They refuse to respect themselves, teachers, parents and especially the police. When little Johnny turns 16 and is arrested at 4:00am with a bag of 1000 hits of E that he just drove in to town with in Daddy's Escalade, Daddy doesn't say "where did I go wrong? We have a problem and need to fix it". No, Daddy wants to know what the probable cause for the stop was and why I am picking on poor little Johnny. There are real criminals out there and Daddy will have my job. Blame and responsibility are transfered from poor Johnny to the corrupt police. It really isn't Johnny's fault. It has been this way his entire life and he knows no better.
Your constant reference to the popularity of rap music, violent video games depicting the murder of cops etc...as being evidence of what cops have brought onthemselves is ridiculous, at best, and really does show your immaturity. The popularity of such things is direct evidence of parents failing to set boundaries and saying enough is enough. "I just don't care what little Johnny is doing as long as he isn't screaming at me and telling me to go F myself." I have many friends who are teachers and they are absolutely in a frenzy with the way kids act in school. It is completely out of control. What is it that teachers have done, as a group, to disgruntle the youth and justify them acting like animals? That must also just be an extension of the outrage against police harassment and corruption.
Also, please stop offering your friends that are "studying" to be police officers, as expert witnesses. They are not and know about as much about the realities of being a police officer as I do of being a carpenter, or computer technician. They qualify nothing and it makes you look silly to pretend that they do.
Steve
Ben and Rich,
Please don't misinterpret my comments. No, I would not exercise my authority over this guy for simply not showing me proper respect. #1 I don't have the time to arrest everyone that simply irritates me. #2 That kind of conduct would quickly get a guy/gal in hot water. You just can't operate like that for long and maintain your credibility. Pimp arrests are pimp arrests no matter the circumstances, but a guy is allowed one once in awhile under certain circumstances and it is understood by the courts, your peers and supervisors.
A few scenarios, if you will, when a circumstance like this might turn into an arrest.
#1 The copper goes up to talk to this guy and recognizes him to be the same guy that was arrested last week for stealing tokens and selling them. He gets no quarter and deserves none.
#2 The copper goes up to the guy and the guy gets confrontational, non-compliant and starts making a huge scene. Mr. Copper just wants to go get a cup of coffe because he hasn't had one yet and has 6 reports stacked on his front seat that need to be done before he can go home. It is half way through his shift and there will be 6 more to replace the original six. Now he has to deal with Mr. Wonderful who is pulling out all his original material. Doughnut eating, real criminals, something better to do etc...He is being completely unreasonable and offers the copper the choice of standing there and being abused in front of a hundred people and possibly having a crowd turn ugly on him, or just making the arrest and getting the heck out of there. If the guy would have acted like a human being the copper would have seen the situation for what it was and there would not be a problem. By his actions he escalates the incident to the unreasonable and forces an arrest.
I am not saying that this is what happened, just that it would be how I can see and understand how this seemingly ridiculous incident turned into an arrest. I was not there and it really could be what it appears.
I have three simple rules that I DEMAND people follow.
#1 Stay out of my personal space. Flexing, invading my space and trying to physically intimidate me will result in an immediate and effective countermeasure and you will be looking out the back of a police car. I WILL be going home today in the same shape I came.
#2 You can disagree with me all you want. You have that right and I respect civil, controlled disagreement and will listen to what anyone has to say. This is America and many have fought and died for you to be able to do that. However, when I show up I am in charge. It can be no other way. When I ask you to do something that is reasonable, please do it. You can mutter about what an A-hole I am all you want if makes you feel better, just do what I ask. There is a valid reason for it and I will be happy to explain my actions when I am done taking care of what I need to. Most of the time when I initially piss people off they leave understanding why I did what I did and why I didn't take the time to explain and discuss my actions in the middle of a potentially volitile situation. It is not about being a sheep. It is about understanding that I have no choice but to take control and be the one in charge. I will ask you politely, call you sir/mam and say please. Everyone deserves that respect and I give it until someone goes stupid on me. If there is no reasonable cause for me to be believe that you were, are, or are about to be engaged in criminal activity then walk away.
#3 When I say you are under arrest the debate is over, period. After you are in handcuffs, searched for weapons and secure we can talk for any period of time that is reasonable. I will do all I can to assist a person in understanding their situation. I understand that you are upset. You should be, your liberty has been taken from you and I take that very seriously, but also take my safety seriously. There will be no debate before you are in handcuffs and searched.
I don't think that I am unreasonable.
Please don't misinterpret my comments. No, I would not exercise my authority over this guy for simply not showing me proper respect. #1 I don't have the time to arrest everyone that simply irritates me. #2 That kind of conduct would quickly get a guy/gal in hot water. You just can't operate like that for long and maintain your credibility. Pimp arrests are pimp arrests no matter the circumstances, but a guy is allowed one once in awhile under certain circumstances and it is understood by the courts, your peers and supervisors.
A few scenarios, if you will, when a circumstance like this might turn into an arrest.
#1 The copper goes up to talk to this guy and recognizes him to be the same guy that was arrested last week for stealing tokens and selling them. He gets no quarter and deserves none.
#2 The copper goes up to the guy and the guy gets confrontational, non-compliant and starts making a huge scene. Mr. Copper just wants to go get a cup of coffe because he hasn't had one yet and has 6 reports stacked on his front seat that need to be done before he can go home. It is half way through his shift and there will be 6 more to replace the original six. Now he has to deal with Mr. Wonderful who is pulling out all his original material. Doughnut eating, real criminals, something better to do etc...He is being completely unreasonable and offers the copper the choice of standing there and being abused in front of a hundred people and possibly having a crowd turn ugly on him, or just making the arrest and getting the heck out of there. If the guy would have acted like a human being the copper would have seen the situation for what it was and there would not be a problem. By his actions he escalates the incident to the unreasonable and forces an arrest.
I am not saying that this is what happened, just that it would be how I can see and understand how this seemingly ridiculous incident turned into an arrest. I was not there and it really could be what it appears.
I have three simple rules that I DEMAND people follow.
#1 Stay out of my personal space. Flexing, invading my space and trying to physically intimidate me will result in an immediate and effective countermeasure and you will be looking out the back of a police car. I WILL be going home today in the same shape I came.
#2 You can disagree with me all you want. You have that right and I respect civil, controlled disagreement and will listen to what anyone has to say. This is America and many have fought and died for you to be able to do that. However, when I show up I am in charge. It can be no other way. When I ask you to do something that is reasonable, please do it. You can mutter about what an A-hole I am all you want if makes you feel better, just do what I ask. There is a valid reason for it and I will be happy to explain my actions when I am done taking care of what I need to. Most of the time when I initially piss people off they leave understanding why I did what I did and why I didn't take the time to explain and discuss my actions in the middle of a potentially volitile situation. It is not about being a sheep. It is about understanding that I have no choice but to take control and be the one in charge. I will ask you politely, call you sir/mam and say please. Everyone deserves that respect and I give it until someone goes stupid on me. If there is no reasonable cause for me to be believe that you were, are, or are about to be engaged in criminal activity then walk away.
#3 When I say you are under arrest the debate is over, period. After you are in handcuffs, searched for weapons and secure we can talk for any period of time that is reasonable. I will do all I can to assist a person in understanding their situation. I understand that you are upset. You should be, your liberty has been taken from you and I take that very seriously, but also take my safety seriously. There will be no debate before you are in handcuffs and searched.
I don't think that I am unreasonable.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Stick around, Steve. You're a keeper and I don't think you're unreasonable either.
What you point out is the difference between simple caught-me-off-guard-disrespect vs grandstanding/obstructionism/bullying. I'd be yawning while I watched any of those particular arrest scenarios go down.
Rich
What you point out is the difference between simple caught-me-off-guard-disrespect vs grandstanding/obstructionism/bullying. I'd be yawning while I watched any of those particular arrest scenarios go down.
Rich
He was being an A$$hole so I went ahead and hammered him. This is exactly the attitude that makes people get their hackles up every time they get pulled over. "dont you know who I am"? You are simply a man who chose a prfession where you have to deal with folks everyday. It doesnt matter what the "perp" said to this knothead, he still couldve just told him dont do that. Jeez what nerve. They better show me the proper respect...or else. Right
Big Ruger,
A little growing up would do you a ton of good. Neither of us know what really happened in this incident. Unlike you, I am absolutley capable of and willing to look at the other side of this. I agree that if this was a case of an honest citizen doing nothing more than helping a brother out, that it is ridiculous. You, on the other hand, refuse to see that something else VERY WELL could have happened to change the face of this and many news reports.
"It doesn't matter what the perp said to the officer" The poor guy should have been able to tell the officer to go F himself and the pig should have scurried away with his tail between his legs, after appologizing for having the nerve to even think of inconveniencing him with the trivial matter of having committed a crime...
Cop: Sir, I saw you exchange a token for money. That is illegal. Can I see some ID so I know who I am talking to and we can sort this out.
Poor Joe: You Fing pig. Don't you have anything better to do? Are all the Doughnut shops closed? I know the mayor and I will have your job, you fing pig prick. This is ridiculous, there are crack dealers and rapists all over the place and you are bothering me with this crap? What a fing ahole you are.
...crowd starting to form to watch the show at this point due to the fact that poor Joe is all puffed up and screming at the top of his lungs.
Cop: We have a big problem with people stealing tokens and selling them for drug money. I need to see some ID.
Poor Joe: ID? Go f yourself. There's your ID. I am not giving you **** and there is nothing you can do about it. I want your name!
COP: Alright, alright. You seem like a pretty decent fellow. Sorry for the inconvenience. Just don't do it again, OK? Have a nice day, sir.
COP: Oh, one more thing, can I keep my job, PLEASEE CHEESSEE?
The way things should be according to BIG Ruger.
A little growing up would do you a ton of good. Neither of us know what really happened in this incident. Unlike you, I am absolutley capable of and willing to look at the other side of this. I agree that if this was a case of an honest citizen doing nothing more than helping a brother out, that it is ridiculous. You, on the other hand, refuse to see that something else VERY WELL could have happened to change the face of this and many news reports.
"It doesn't matter what the perp said to the officer" The poor guy should have been able to tell the officer to go F himself and the pig should have scurried away with his tail between his legs, after appologizing for having the nerve to even think of inconveniencing him with the trivial matter of having committed a crime...
Cop: Sir, I saw you exchange a token for money. That is illegal. Can I see some ID so I know who I am talking to and we can sort this out.
Poor Joe: You Fing pig. Don't you have anything better to do? Are all the Doughnut shops closed? I know the mayor and I will have your job, you fing pig prick. This is ridiculous, there are crack dealers and rapists all over the place and you are bothering me with this crap? What a fing ahole you are.
...crowd starting to form to watch the show at this point due to the fact that poor Joe is all puffed up and screming at the top of his lungs.
Cop: We have a big problem with people stealing tokens and selling them for drug money. I need to see some ID.
Poor Joe: ID? Go f yourself. There's your ID. I am not giving you **** and there is nothing you can do about it. I want your name!
COP: Alright, alright. You seem like a pretty decent fellow. Sorry for the inconvenience. Just don't do it again, OK? Have a nice day, sir.
COP: Oh, one more thing, can I keep my job, PLEASEE CHEESSEE?
The way things should be according to BIG Ruger.
The police state assumption: knowing who a person is will magically resolve whether a crime has been committed. Otherwise, asking for ID is simply a mechanism for selective enforcement. If the person's papers are in order, the cop looks the other way. If they aren't, or if the person has a rap sheet, the cop gives him no quarter.
Can someone explain the rationale behind the law? Are they worried about people selling stolen tokens? Are they worried about people breaking token machines and selling legitimate tokens at a profit? Are they trying to make tokens non-transferrable, so that people who buy them and don't need them are stuck with them?
unreal...I feel like I am on an episode of the twilight zone.
He just SAW a freakin crime committed. There was no determining anything, except how it would be handled and it is a police state because he wants to know the identity of the person committing the crime? Actually does a little bit of investigation? Does his JOB? Maybe the guy is the one wanted for raping someones daughter? Maybe he is just a decent guy trying to be a good neighbor. The copper has no way of knowing because the guy he just saw COMMITTING a crime can't be ID'd because it is a police state if someone COMMITTING a crime is asked for ID by the police. I call absolutely ridiculous and retire from this non-sense. Unreal...
He just SAW a freakin crime committed. There was no determining anything, except how it would be handled and it is a police state because he wants to know the identity of the person committing the crime? Actually does a little bit of investigation? Does his JOB? Maybe the guy is the one wanted for raping someones daughter? Maybe he is just a decent guy trying to be a good neighbor. The copper has no way of knowing because the guy he just saw COMMITTING a crime can't be ID'd because it is a police state if someone COMMITTING a crime is asked for ID by the police. I call absolutely ridiculous and retire from this non-sense. Unreal...
I just reread my post, and am pretty sure I did not advocate anyone being abusive towards a cop, or refusing to show ID when asked to do so or anything else you said. All I am saying is that there seems to be alot of officers who take themselves way to seriously. You are right I dont know what happened in this case. I can tell you that I have been in situations myself where I was treated badly for no other reason than because someoene felt puffed up about themselves. I am and have always been a great fan of decent, respectful, honest, and hard working cops. That being said I think a little respect is due me also, like it or not I am a tax paying citizen and I see no reason why I should bow and scrape because you have on a nice uniform and a badge. I simply wont have my rights trampled. By the way your informing me that I need to grow up, thats exactly what I am talking about. My post was not real nice, but I aint a moron just because I hold these views.