Atlanta Airport & Open Carry of an AR15

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zincwarrior said:
You’re not a cop. If you want to be a police officer, join the force.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/unnamed-source/PNG 2009-05-06-pro_elitism_zpswa5t1rqq.jpg

Wherein we learn that some people think it's fine if people with shiny bits of metal on their chests carry automatic weapons in the Airport but a semi-automatic sporting rifle is cause for widespread panic.

I'm not a firefighter either, that doesn't mean I can't have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, one in my car and an industrial sized one in my garage. What else ya got?
 
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We can agree that 100% of people posting on this forum are pro-gun and pro-2nd Amendment.

However, the majority on this thread, including me, think that:
1. This was a really dumb stunt.
2. This type of behavior, while currently legal, will likely become illegal and further encroach our right.

With great rights come great responsibilities. Exercise them irresponsibly and you shall soon lose them. This is a prime example of that.

I refer back to the yelling "fire" analogy, or "hi, jack," analogy. Both are appropriate here. They are legal and illegal depending on their context.

Yell "hi, jack," to a guy named Jack on the public street in downtown Cleveland, nobody cares. Change the context, put yourself in ANY location of an airport or on an airplane, and you'll be at least detained and there's a good chance you'll face federal charges. Same thing with yelling fire, there is a time and a place where it is clearly illegal.

Rights to carry are hard-fought and won, very narrowly. Idiots like this can get them taken away by very negative actions like this. It is quite telling that most pro-gun people on this forum are against this behavior. I've seen this discussion on a number of gun boards over the years when people open carry military guns at rallys and pull stunts like this at the airport. It is very unpopular among pro-gun crowd, due to the terrible public press. For the sake of pure argument, let's say that 2 in 10 (20%) of pro gun people are supportive. You can bet zero of the fence sitters (the crowd we really need) are supportive, and it gives the antis a lot of ammunition against us "loons."

Wherein we learn that some people think it's fine if people with shiny bits of metal on their chests carry automatic weapons in the Airport but a semi-automatic sporting rifle is cause for widespread panic.

I'm not a firefighter either, that doesn't mean I can't have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, one in my car and an industrial sized one in my garage. What else ya got?

You're preaching to the choir, but you're not making any sense. We are all on the same pro-gun team, and most of us would make these arguments for normal gun ownership behavior. Except it's not normal to be open carrying any loaded rifles in such a manner in a somewhat controlled environment.

You cannot deny it's a controlled environment. You are under strict watchful eye the moment you get onto airport property from cameras, police, TSA, and sometimes military. Suspect cars can and do get searched or towed, you can't park in certain drop off/pick up points, and yada yada yada.

This isn't a unique or period difference in the difference of normal versus abnormal behavior. In peacetime, it would have never been normal to act this way - carrying a loaded military style weapon into a psuedo-secured entry point. Not in the 1800s, not in the 1900s, and not in the 2000s. It can rightly be viewed as a step toward hostilities.

I doubt you can intellectually honestly say that if you were to take your kid to school, and there was a man hovering around the school, let's say just beyond the "gun free" area, watching the kids with a pair of binoculars (totally legal) with an AR15 or a scoped hunting rifle slung on his back (assume that is legal where you live) - that you wouldn't feel apprehensive and alert authorities? Again, context. I would assume this guy is up to deviant plans.

I could come up with a million examples of normal behavior but abnormal or dangerous appearing in context.

I'll add that this is also viewed in military terms as "probing for weaknesses." By design, targets are probed for weaknesses, response to actions, etc. Carrying an open AR15 into such an area to view the response might be one of a million examples of this activity. And one more reason courts would immediately make it illegal.

And this again sets us back. Not a single Federal judge is going to say that it's okay to carry an AR15 loaded and in the open into an airport check in area. Not one.
 
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leadcounsel said:
However, the majority on this thread, including me, think that:
1. This was a really dumb stunt.
2. This type of behavior, while currently legal, will likely become illegal and further encroach our right.
With all due respect, at one time the majority of people thought that the sun revolved around the earth, that did not make the minority opinion wrong.
The gentleman's behavior would have been illegal a few years ago and only recently made explicitly legal with the passage of HB 60 in 2014. It's unlikely to be made illegal again as there is no support for it. Even the Georgia Governor did not have anything negative to say on the subject when he was interviewed.

With great rights come great responsibilities. Exercise them irresponsibly and you shall soon lose them. This is a prime example of that.
Exercise them not at all and you'll lose them even faster. No right is lost faster than one not exercised.

I refer back to the yelling "fire" analogy, or "hi, jack," analogy. Both are appropriate here. They are legal and illegal depending on their context.
Yell "hi, jack," to a guy named Jack on the public street in downtown Cleveland, nobody cares. Change the context, put yourself in ANY location of an airport or on an airplane, and you'll be at least detained and there's a good chance you'll face federal charges. Same thing with yelling fire, there is a time and a place where it is clearly illegal.
Piffle and poppycock. You may be subject to a short investigatory detention, but there won't be any charges as soon as you point to your friend Jack.

Rights to carry are hard-fought and won, very narrowly. Idiots like this can get them taken away by very negative actions like this. It is quite telling that most pro-gun people on this forum are against this behavior. I've seen this discussion on a number of gun boards over the years when people open carry military guns at rallys[sic] and pull stunts like this at the airport. It is very unpopular among pro-gun crowd, due to the terrible public press. For the sake of pure argument, let's say that 2 in 10 (20%) of pro gun people are supportive. You can bet zero of the fence sitters (the crowd we really need) are supportive, and it gives the antis a lot of ammunition against us "loons."
You cannot deny it's a controlled environment. You are under strict watchful eye the moment you get onto airport property from cameras, police, TSA, and sometimes military. Suspect cars can and do get searched or towed, you can't park in certain drop off/pick up points, and yada yada yada.
Yes, I can deny that it's a controlled environment. The portion of the airport that the gentleman was in was open to the public and not restricted nor controlled by any sort of federal regulation, access control, security screening, or even a cardboard sign. TSA hasn't a dang thing to do with any area NOT past the passenger screening area. TSOs carry no weapons, and are not permitted to use force, nor do they have the power to arrest. If a TSO commands someone walking in one of the concourses to "HALT!" the person has every right to tell the blustery bustard to go pound sand. The TSA cannot legally arrest or detain under the authorities granted to it by the federal government, any detentions or arrests will be performed by law enforcement (which the TSA is not, has never been, and never will be.)

Where cars may park or drop off passengers is a city/airport matter and not subject to federal rules or regulation.

This isn't a unique or period difference in the difference of normal versus abnormal behavior. In peacetime, it would have never been normal to act this way - carrying a loaded military style weapon into a psuedo-secured entry point. Not in the 1800s, not in the 1900s, and not in the 2000s. It can rightly be viewed as a step toward hostilities.
It's not pseudo anything. It's a public area, freely accessible by the public (armed or unarmed, carrying concealed or openly.)

I doubt you can [be] intellectually honestly say that if you were to take your kid to school, and there was a man hovering around the school, let's say just beyond the "gun free" area, watching the kids with a pair of binoculars (totally legal) with an AR15 or a scoped hunting rifle slung on his back (assume that is legal where you live) - that you wouldn't feel apprehensive and alert authorities? Again, context. I would assume this guy is up to deviant plans.
Yeah, I might be apprehensive, but I might be apprehensive when I spot someone walking an American Pit Bull Terrier [...] It doesn't mean that [is] illegal, immoral, unethical, or shouldn't be done.
Then again, I might be extremely relieved it there had been recent threats by extremists and my estimation was that the gentleman was there to guard the lives of innocent children. To the best of m knowledge, it's not de rigueur for someone to wear a shiny bit of metal on their chests or have their paychecks signed by a public servant before they can be allowed to exercise the freedom to protect others as well as themselves.

I could come up with a million examples of normal behavior but abnormal or dangerous appearing in context.

I'll add that this is also viewed in military terms as "probing for weaknesses." By design, targets are probed for weaknesses, response to actions, etc. Carrying an open AR15 into such an area to view the response might be one of a million examples of this activity. And one more reason courts would immediately make it illegal.
Courts don't make things illegal, legislatures do. Further, as Armies the world over do, the government is 'fighting the last war' instead of looking ahead. Islamic extremists aren't going to attack airports in America again, they're going to look for a new, unprotected target; a new transportation hub, a shopping mall, perhaps even a sporting event (like the Boston Marathon). The tactic will be to bleed the Great Satan white as the US must now 'protect' a greater and greater number of venues.

Not a single Federal judge is going to say that it's okay to carry an AR15 loaded and in the open into an airport check in area. Not one.
Incorrect. Airport check-in areas are not located beyond the passenger screening area which is under federal control. Up to that point, the building is state owned or commercial property.
Had it not been okay, i.e. illegal, Mr Cooley would have been arrested and charged. He wasn't.
 
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Through his incredibly stupid and self-serving act, "Mr Cooley" has demonstrated what
the anti-gun crowd have been touting all along... that gun owners lack the judgement
to be entrusted with deadly weapons.
 
Quote:
How the Atlanta cops let that guy walk is beyond me.
As others have pointed out, carry is legal in the airport. At question is the wisdom of doing so with a rifle.

I imagine the police had a close eye on him, but there was nothing criminal in his actions.
__________________

I'd imagine airport management could have declared him trespassing and had the police escort him off though. They should have.
 
zincwarrior said:
I'd imagine airport management could have declared him trespassing and had the police escort him off though. They should have.
Nope, he was there to pick up a passenger, further he was in full compliance with all state laws, municipal ordinances, and airport rules. He assaulted no one, made no terroristic threats, did not panhandle, nor did he seem to have any contact with anyone that did not approach him first.

They could trespass him no more than they could trespass someone for the color of his skin. Hartsfield-Jackson isn't private property.

C'mon guys, this isn't exactly rocket science.
 
I'm not a firefighter either, that doesn't mean I can't have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, one in my car and an industrial sized one in my garage. What else ya got?

Do you normally walk around in full fireman gear, carrying an ax and a 6inch hose?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zincwarrior
I'd imagine airport management could have declared him trespassing and had the police escort him off though. They should have.
Nope, he was there to pick up a passenger, further he was in full compliance with all state laws, municipal ordinances, and airport rules. He assaulted no one, made no terroristic threats, did not panhandle, nor did he seem to have any contact with anyone that did not approach him first.

They could trespass him no more than they could trespass someone for the color of his skin. Hartsfield-Jackson isn't private property.

C'mon guys, this isn't exactly rocket science.

Please support this with evidence that management could not have asked him to leave if it had desired.
 
There are many ways to detain an individual over bizarre disturbing behavior. Atlanta decided to let it pass. Everyone here hangs their hat on he simply was exercising a protected right. It was in the manner he chose to exercise that right that could have and should have got him in trouble. Maybe not found guilty of but certainly within the realm of probably cause that police utilize every day. I have to believe that decision to let him walk came from a higher authority not wanting to spend millions proving this man an idiot. You think Im wrong go ahead and suit up and try it at your local Walmart the outcome may not be the same. This type of behavior will not last and attempts to stop this will happen if this action continues.
 
mehavey said:
Through his incredibly stupid and self-serving act, "Mr Cooley" has demonstrated what the anti-gun crowd have been touting all along... that gun owners lack the judgement to be entrusted with deadly weapons.


First, this episode actually demonstrates that even an armed ninnie wasn't actually a public harm. He drew a little attention, had a chat with POs, and dropped his daughter off. You don't want freedom of action to be limited to those who have demonstrated sufficient judgment to the satisfaction of a state minion.

Second, one should never contest the point that that some firearm owners lack good judgment. The point is certainly true, but not pertinent. Some people lack the good judgment to drive safely, write sensibly or buy healthy food.
 
Quote:
Exercise them not at all and you'll lose them even faster. No right is lost faster than one not exercised.
Would you be so kind as to point out examples of that happening?

Well no one has used their rights against quartering troops for nearly a century. Almost no one uses that right now. :rolleyes:
 
When open carry comes up for a vote in your state, and the opposition puts video of this airport stunt on the air non-stop, tell all your friends and neighbors how walking around in urban settings is no big deal, and Cooley is comparable to Jesus or Gandhi.

With that kind of logic behind it, we'll be lucky to be able to carry a penknife beyond our front door in just a few more years.
 
Why is it OK for Police and Military personnel to openly carry a firearm and everyone is ambivilent to there presence, but when a American citizen does it, the sky starts falling? And yet everyone says they supports the 2nd Amendment? Amazing.

Hundreds of thousands of military member have carried REAL "Military Rifles" in civilian airports for a long time (Well before 9-11 ). Is it the spiffy comabt pickle suit(digitals) they wear that put the public at ease? Nope. Maybe the citizenry was unable to see them, sence they blend into the environment so well? Nope. Was there rampit panic in the terminal as hundreds of Military Personnel filled through to their Milflight? Nope. Do police open carry firearms in Airports? Yep. Now here is the issue, our founding fathers wanted the citizenry to have the same arms and ability to bear arms to defend themselves as our Armed Military did, correct? if not, then cite source that founders did not beleave so.

Some may worry about the probing that a terrorist might do to test for weaknesses of a facility. Gentlemen, I don't fear an old guy, open carrying a rifle legally. If you do, then you're probably missing the clean cut young to middle aged man/woman with a briefcase or backpack that goes unnoticed by blending in. The open rifle carrier guy is known thing. The things that you don't see are often what is likely to be ones doom.

Additionally, by defining what this guy was carrying as a "Military Style Weapon" it would imply that there is some meaning to such a classification vs Open carrying a rifle. Are there any NON Military Style Weapons? If so what are they? Assuming there are any. what "Non-Military Style Rifle" would have been ok? If it doesn't matter, and all rifles would be just as offensive regardless, then why state it as an issue?

The "fire" in the theater issue, is not an about inflicting emotional distress on those in the theater that is the rub. Emotional distress was covered in Flint v. Falwell case. Thus, if yelling "Fire" in a public building was made Illegal, then what would happens if there was a fire in a theater? Everyone burns(great policy, roll eyes). The issue with "fire" in the theater is often used to make the point that even the first Amendment has limitations. Yep, it does. So what? There is already a law about pointing a gun at someone just to see them run like hell for a thrill already(just like the 1st A). Is there anyplace, in the U.S.A., that a citizen is not allowed to Pray even in "sensative areas"? Nope. Any "Pray free Zones"? Nope. The "fire" in the theater analogy has no bearing on the issue in the airport, unless you can prove that he was actively threatning people by pointing his rifle at them (which there is a law against).

Mehavey: "Through his incredibly stupid and self-serving act, "Mr Cooley" has demonstrated what the anti-gun crowd have been touting all along... that gun owners lack the judgement to be entrusted with deadly weapons"

Hmmm. Does that assumption include the individuals that chose to conceal carry as well? Since, they carry their firearms in the same manner as common criminals, aren't they just as self serving? If not, then I find your logic falty. Officers of the Law often drive their police vehicles over the speed limit, fail to signal, fail to stop at stop signs....without any reason to do so, yet they write tickets for such violations on citizens for doing the same thing. Your argument sounds simular.
 
k said:
When open carry comes up for a vote in your state, and the opposition puts video of this airport stunt on the air non-stop, tell all your friends and neighbors how walking around in urban settings is no big deal, and Cooley is comparable to Jesus or Gandhi.

What is the logic behind arguing for an activity to be prohibited by using an example in which no one was harmed?
 
Why is it OK for Police and Military personnel to openly carry a firearm and everyone is ambivilent to there presence, but when a American citizen does it, the sky starts falling? And yet everyone says they supports the 2nd Amendment? Amazing.

Because its really really hard to find circumstances where police and military have opened up on US civilians.

Its not hard at all to find circumstances where mass killers/terrorists have opened up or tried to open up on civilians.

Again, if you want to play cop graduate from Police Academy and become an officer. You don't have the same powers they do.
 
This guy has not helped and probably hurt the cause of privite gun ownership, and the carrying of same.

The avg person seeing him in the airport was probably concerned. That does not sway the folks sitting on the fence about gun control to our side.

You cant compare his behavior to the UNIFORMED LEO or UNIFORMED military carrying openly in public. The UNIFORM is a visual badge showing the public that the LEO belongs there with that equipment.

Look at the dissenting opinions on THIS forum, and we are all PRO GUN. The public at large will have an even more negative view.

Events like this are the poster child for more restrictive regulations. This guy played right into the hands of the Anti's
 
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4thPoint said:
First, your second photo is from a movie, so it's not an illustration of something actually occurring at the historical time portrayed.

Second, we really don't know what folks thought about that then.

But in any case, that was then, and this is now. The reality is that social norms and values change over time. Many things which were socially acceptable 150 years ago aren't now. And many things which are socially acceptable now were not 150 years ago.

Reality is what goes on in the world -- not what goes on in your head.

4thPoint said:
..some people think it's fine if people with shiny bits of metal on their chests carry automatic weapons in the Airport...
Yes, that is true. Another example of reality.

4thPoint said:
Exercise them not at all and you'll lose them even faster. No right is lost faster than one not exercised.
Let's see some evidence. A lot of folks say this, but I have never seen a scintilla of evidence supporting that claim. On the other hand, as I pointed out in post 32 there are examples of rights being exercised in ways obnoxious to enough people to result in the conduct becoming illegal.
 
Kilimanjaro: "When open carry comes up for a vote in your state"

No worriers, Permissive open carry is already legal in my state, and has been that way since I moved here in the 80's. Prior to that I lived in Vermont. What else you got?
 
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