ATF says medical marijuana users can't buy guns of any kind

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If this is too far off the topic, edit it please.

I am wondering about timing now. If a non-pot smoker person were to go out and buy a firearm at a FFL and truthfully answer that they "are not a user", and that same person later that week started dating a pothead and smoking the pot on a regular basis, did they break the firearms laws? If that is a legal purchase, how long would a pot smoker have to stay sober to be legal to answer "not a user" on the 4473 form?

Alternately, if a glaucoma patient who occaisionally smokes the pot were to buy a firearm in a private sale (not requiring a 4473 form), would this gun owner be in violation of the ATF rules in possessing/owning the firearm or in the act of purchasing sans 4473? I am assuming there was no "straw purchase" situation, say the owner had gun for 2 years and tired of its magenta coloration, then sold it to random glaucoma-afflicted buyer at gun show who showed an in-state ID and denied any felony record. In other words, should we be asking people if they smoke the pot before making a private firearm sale to them?

This situation seems far from optimal.
 
When the question relates to whether laws create consequences for acts, it's the opinions of courts that matter. The opinions of courts cause/affect those consequences. Your opinions have no effect on such things in the real world.

Again I submit that if only the opinions of courts matter and the considered, in light of history and precedent, opinions of the people do not then we would not have this great nation.

If it is now the generally accepted "opinion" of the citizens of this nation that court opinions are all that matter then we might as well burn the constitution turn in our guns and do whatever big brother tells us.
 
Maybe next we will learn the the ATF is importing weed..... Its the kind of nonsense this office seems to think is acceptable.
 
Maybe next we will learn the the ATF is importing weed..... Its the kind of nonsense this office seems to think is acceptable

Would not be the first time the government had a hand in the contraband drug trade.
 
"Except that unless a court agrees, your opinion doesn't mean anything."
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It isn't just my opinion....it's how this Country was founded. Moreover, there are four people in black robes that can't find the 2nd Amendment with both hands! To say it another way,.. I don't need any court to define what my rights are. It WAS understood that our rights are God given and
unalienable.

John Marshall too, back when he was part of the Virginia ratification convention, which also by the way said what I'm saying here today.


"Mr. John Marshall asked if gentlemen were serious when they asserted that, if the state governments had power to interfere with the militia, it was by implication. If they were, he asked the committee whether the least attention would not show that they were mistaken. The state governments did not derive their powers from the general government; but each government derived its powers from the people, and each was to act according to the powers given it. Would any gentleman deny this? He demanded if powers not given were retained by implication. Could any man say so? Could any man say that this power was not retained by the states, as they had not given it away? For, says he, does not a power remain till it is given away? The state legislatures had power to command and govern their militia before, and have it still, undeniably, unless there be something in this Constitution that takes it away.

For Continental purposes Congress may call forth the militia,--as to suppress insurrections and repel invasions. But the power given to the states by the people is not taken away; for the Constitution does not say so. In the Confederation Congress had this power; but the state legislatures had it also. The power of legislating given them within the ten miles square is exclusive of the states, because it is expressed to be exclusive. The truth is, that when power is given to the general legislature, if it was in the state legislature before, both shall exercise it; unless there be an incompatibility in the exercise by one to that by the other, or negative words precluding the state governments from it. But there are no negative words here. It rests, therefore, with the states."

I'm sure you remember that knownothing James Madison?

“[The Constitution] was constantly justified and recommended on the ground that the powers not given to the government were withheld from it; and that, if any doubt could have existed on this subject, under the original text of the Constitution, it is removed, as far as words could remove it, by the [10th] amendment, now a part of the Constitution, which expressly declares, ‘that the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
 
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Debating what rights are God Given, gets us off topic.

It is clear for this discussion, the interaction of the courts, states and Fed. government are more important that abstract opinions of what one poster thinks are immutable laws of liberty. It is clear that a social consensus, expressed through the mechanisms of the country is what is important.

So let's get back to that. How does current laws, courts, blah, blah, etc. speak to the issue.
 
It is clear that a social consensus, expressed through the mechanisms of the country is what is important.

So is it the social consensus that what was, what should be, and what could be is not worthy of consideration in light of what is? Shall we not bring attention to how the status quo of what is might not be what should be? Part of changing current law through the mechanisms of the country is pointing out where the status quo might not be acceptable to the social consensus. If history and historical intentions are not worthy of consideration in the process then we do not have a social consensus just a judicial directive.

On another note there have been many quotes, from historical figures, of a similar nature on this site when strictly defending the second amendment. Is that the only historically relevant part of the constitution?
 
Acknowledging the fact that the Feds won't recognize State laws if they conflict with US law, or US policy in some cases, and the Feds have the "guns", so to speak, we have no choice but to accept that the Gov't can do anything they damn well please... for the time being.

Might makes right, power comes from the barrel of a gun, etc. Eat the crumbs they give you and be thankful!:rolleyes:
 
"Debating what rights are God Given, gets us off topic."
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I respectfully disagree. It should be made clear that I could care less about marijuana (outside of cheech and chong movies) that is.

"The few cases wherein these things (proposed Bill of Rights) may do evil, cannot be weighed against the multitude where the want of them will do evil…I hope therefore a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the federal government…”

And..yet, we have this same federal government dictating whom or what may own said firearm. Is not protection of ones self a natural right?

“On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”

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It is clear that a social consensus, expressed through the mechanisms of the country is what is important.
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Look, it is an indisputable fact that the Federal Government has escaped from the confines of the Constitution. Placing the genie back in the bottle is the main issue here.

I do not sir, question their right of medical pot use. Because there is a right older, even, than this, and one more inalienable - the right that every man has to defend his home and to protect those who are dependent on him. This would imply firearm ownership.....
 
I want us to stay on this specific issue and not wander into general political theory. That should be clear.

Does the general right to defend yourself invalidate every restriction of gun ownership based on criminal behavior or mental capacity? Who claims that?

The specific is the conflict between the state and Fed. marijuana laws.

And I don't want to start a debate on whether X or Y liberty is immutable or a social consensus in this thread.

I'm feeling we are done with the marijuana issue. The Feds trump state medical marijuana. That's that. If you want to start a more general thread, go ahead.

If you have more to say on the specific go ahead or if not, start another thread.
 
I want us to stay on this specific issue and not wander into general political theory. That should be clear.

Does the general right to defend yourself invalidate every restriction of gun ownership based on criminal behavior or mental capacity? Who claims that?

The specific is the conflict between the state and Fed. marijuana laws.

And I don't want to start a debate on whether X or Y liberty is immutable or a social consensus in this thread.

I'm feeling we are done with the marijuana issue. The Feds trump state medical marijuana. That's that. If you want to start a more general thread, go ahead.

If you have more to say on the specific go ahead or if not, start another thread.
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We come now to a more particular and detailed examination of the question, "Who is the final judge, or interpreter in constitutional controversies?"

Let us now inquire what "constitutional controversies" the federal courts have authority to decide, and how far its decisions are final and conclusive against all the world.

The Constitution provides that "the judicial powers shall extend to all cases in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and the treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority; to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction to controversies to which the United States shall be a party; to controversies between two or more States; between a State and citizens of another State; between citizens of different States; between citizens of the same State, claiming lands under grants of different States; and between a State and the citizens thereof, and foreign States, citizens or subjects."

The Constitution provides that "the judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by citizens of another State, or by citizens and subjects of any foreign State."


It will be conceded on all hands that the federal courts have no jurisdiction except what is here conferred. The judiciary, as a part of the Federal Government, derives its powers only from the Constitution which creates that government. The term "cases" implies that the subject matter shall be proper for judicial decision; and the parties between whom alone jurisdiction can be entertained, are specifically enumerated. Beyond these "cases" and these parties they have no jurisdiction.

There is no part of the Constitution in which the framers of it have displayed a more jealous care of the rights of the States, than in the limitations of the judicial power. It is remarkable that no power is conferred except what is absolutely necessary to carry into effect the general design, and accomplish the general object of the States, as independent States. The federal tribunals cannot take cognizance of any case whatever in which all the States have not an equal and common interest that a just and impartial decision shall be had. A brief analysis of the provisions of the Constitution will make this sufficiently clear.

Cases of these kinds are simply the carrying out of the compact or agreement made between the States, by the Constitution itself, and, of course, all the States are alike interested in them. For this reason alone, if there were no other, they ought to be entrusted to the common tribunals of all the States. There is another reason, however, equally conclusive. The judicial should always be at least co-extensive with the legislative power; for it would be a strange anomaly, and could produce nothing but disorder and confusion, to confer on a government the power to make a law, without conferring at the same time the right to interpret and the power to enforce it.


This brief review of the judicial power of the United States, as given in the Constitution, is not offered as a full analysis of the subject; for the question before us does not render any such analysis necessary. By design has been only to show with what extreme reserve judicial power has been conferred, and with what caution it has been restricted to those cases, only, which the new relation between the States established by the Constitution rendered absolutely necessary. In all the cases above supposed, the jurisdiction of the federal courts is clear and undoubted; and as the States have, in the frame of the Constitution, agreed to submit to the exercise of this jurisdiction, they are bound to do so, and to compel their people to like submission. But it is to be remarked, that they are bound only by their agreement, and not beyond it. They are under no obligation to submit to the decisions of the Supreme Court, on subject matter not properly cognizable before it, nor to those between parties not responsible to its jurisdiction.
 
We come now to a more particular and detailed examination of the question, "Who is the final judge, or interpreter in constitutional controversies?"

No, the thread is over - thank you. I guess my post wasn't clear.

Closed.
 
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