ATF Project Gunrunner

All the Feds have to do is deny they had anything to do with the illegal acts. That probably can't work in this case, but you can bet that was an option before the operation came unraveled.
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That's what worried me at first: that nobody would listen to Howard's side of the story. Fortunately, he appears to have kept records of emails and meetings with agents and with the US Attorney.

If he hadn't, and if the ATF had some plausible deniability, Mr. Howard would have been scapegoated. As soon as the Terry gun was traced back to his shop, he'd have been "outed" as the guy who "supplied the cartels," and they'd have thrown him in prison.
 
When anybody enters you place of business and says I am here from the Government to help... you should keep records. If the government gives you bad answers they are not liable for it you are. It might mitigate things if you have record showing that the government gave you bad advice or gave approval for you to proceed even though it is against the law.
 
re pnac's quote, see below:

quote:
The one question I haven't seen asked is this: how much pressure did the ATF put on Mr. Howard to get him to agree to this?
I obviously can't say for sure, but I suspect it didn't take a lot. This was the agency that regulated his business so he would be prone to act on any request they made. At the same time, he was making a boat load of money.

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Concerning this "boatload" of money Mr. Howard made complying with the questionable "requests" of the ATF, have you ever heard of what I have at other times described as Theft Under Color Of Law, also known as Civil Asset Forfeiture?

It would not surprise me in the least to see the Obama DOJ bring Civil Asset Forfeiture proceedings against Mr. Howard's profits, they arising out of "criminal actions", never mind he was merely doing what the ATF requested.

Neither DOJ nor ATF, in my view, are the least trustworthy.
 
This isn't something anybody wants to cry wolf on, but at this point, the wolf already ate that annoying kid, and he's gnawing on the Mayor's ankle.
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Speaking strictly as a wolf: it's rarely a bad idea to take wolves seriously.

Seriously: my initial skepticism was the result of wondering, "Could people really be that dumb?" I wondered that about the Watergate burglary quite a few years ago, too.
 
It would not surprise me in the least to see the Obama DOJ bring Civil Asset Forfeiture proceedings against Mr. Howard's profits, they arising out of "criminal actions", never mind he was merely doing what the ATF requested.

Neither DOJ nor ATF, in my view, are the least trustworthy.
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Trustworthy or not, they are not that insanely stupid. The last thing they want is for some gung-ho attorneys taking depositions and digging through their records in a civil case which is what would happen if they tried that. It would also be a public relations nightmare.
 
if Obama and the ATF are smart they are going to leave Mr. Howard alone if he has evidence that the ATF told him to do it. Mr. Howard will be entitled to review the ATFs records with regards to this matter if they take it to a civil or criminal court. Just the thing I imagine a few pro gun organizations are waiting for.
 
KyJim wrote:

Trustworthy or not, they are not that insanely stupid. The last thing they want is for some gung-ho attorneys taking depositions and digging through their records in a civil case which is what would happen if they tried that. It would also be a public relations nightmare.
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What are you willing to bet re the stupidity, also spelled arrogance, of "the feds", who it appears have come to believe that they are untouchable?
 
What are you willing to bet re the stupidity, also spelled arrogance, of "the feds", who it appears have come to believe that they are untouchable?
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I'm not stupid enough to bet real money on it. :D
 
What about the current administration hasnt been a nightmare concerning policy, it seems almost like they are tone deaf to public sentiment or opinion on any given issue and tend to have a ear towards more specialized interest regardless of the fallout and consequences.

I dont think any level of public black-eye would prevent them from trying anything that seems to fit the need of the moment or supports a given tone that they seem to feel has to be met.

Without debating any of the issues or leaning any direction all I can say is that they seem to be deaf, dumb and blind on how the general public sees anything....
 
Three More Murders Linked to Fast and Furious

The slow-motion train wreck that is Fast & Furious just keeps rolling along...

"(CBS News) — Weapons linked to ATF’s controversial “Fast and Furious” operation have been tied to at least eight violent crimes in Mexico including three murders, four kidnappings and an attempted homicide.

According to a letter from U.S. Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich to Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), the disclosed incidents may be only a partial list of violent crimes linked to Fast and Furious weapons because “ATF has not conducted a comprehensive independent investigation.”

When added to the guns found at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in the U.S., the newly-revealed murders in Mexico bring the total number of deaths linked to Fast and Furious to four.

According to the Justice Department letter:

One AK-47 type assault rifle purchased by a Fast and Furious suspect was recovered Nov. 14, 2009 in Atoyac de Alvarez, Mexico after the Mexican military rescued a kidnap victim.

On July 1, 2010, two AK-47 type assault rifles purchased by Fast and Furious suspects were recovered in Sonora, Mexico after a shootout between cartels. Two murders were reported in the incident using the weapons.

On July 26, 2010, a giant .50 caliber Barrett rifle purchased by a Fast and Furious suspect was recovered in Durango, Mexico after apparently having been fired. No further details of the incident were given.
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http://weaselzippers.us/2011/09/14/...ked-to-operation-fast-and-furious/#more-91044

I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
 
I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
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Not sensational enough yet for US media when compared to entertainment news, reality TV shows, economy, war, weather, politics, etc. Once a few US deaths show up in the headlines as a result of f&f, if they're of a "high enough" level of victim, there might be some press; but as you can see, if Federal agents deaths mean nothing, as they are expendable (I guess), a few Mexican citizens and/or cartel members deaths mean nothing (because they're outside of our jurisdiction and/or who cares?), just ignore the man behind the curtain.

The only person fired to date?

Pretty much sums things up, wouldn't you say?

All of which results in a few, common sense, "reasonable regulations" that in no way infringe on the RKBAs. Or so Uncle Sam tells us. Plato and Aristotle defined a tyrant as, "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics... against his own people as well as others". But then again, those two men did not live in 21st century Washington DC and words don't mean what you think they mean, they only mean what you're told they mean... right?
 
Re BGutzman's closing comments:



Without debating any of the issues or leaning any direction all I can say is that they seem to be deaf, dumb and blind on how the general public sees anything....
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If one seeks a word to describe the Obama administration, your close includes some that are, I submit, all to appropriate. Having said that, you might also consider "arrogant".

Baba Louie wrote:

Plato and Aristotle defined a tyrant as, "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics... against his own people as well as others".
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Sounds about right to me.

Rule #'s 1 and 2, see COWTOWNER's post, it appears, are at work here. Tom Servo, with his Rule # 3 seems to have hit the nail on the head though.
 
I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
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It does not fit their template ..... and I think that was what this whole operation was about:creating the perception that Mexican Cartels were armed by American gun stores BECAUSE our gun laws were too lax.

Earth to Teh Feds: No Law, no matter how stringent, will work if it is not enforced....... and then it will only affect 2 classes of people: Those few lawbreakers you catch, and the Law Abiding.
 
Personally, my hope is that this doesn't peak too soon. The more it is drawn out, the worse it will eventually look. Having it come to a head around October 2012 would be best, IMO.
 
I don't know how this hasn't been front-page news on every channel yet.
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If the current occupant of the White House were a Republican, you can bet your last nickel the story would lead all others 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
 
Actually the rules for criminals operating within the government are:
#1--deny everything - which is precisely what everyone in DoJ and the White House has been doing since this story first broke.
#2-- admit nothing - calling this a "mistake" or a "botched operation" is exactly that.
#3-- make counter accusations - we see this by the newly launched allegations of misconduct against Issa. Look who is making the charge. A bunch of lefto political hacks.

The very fact that a scandal this deep and far reaching is ignored by the MSM is evidence of how partisan they are. This current occupant of the White House is their messiah and they installed him. Now they will carry his water.

I suspect that Issa's strategy involves timing this to blow full open during the campaign next year. I pray this story destroys Obama's chances at a 2nd term.
 
2guns closed with:

I suspect that Issa's strategy involves timing this to blow full open during the campaign next year. I pray this story destroys Obama's chances at a 2nd term.
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I suspect that the economic bungling of Obama et al, combined with the lack of criminal prosecution, fraud is so actionable I believe, of the criminals of high finance might already have accomplished those ends, but we shall see.
 
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