ATF Project Gunrunner

re Tom Servo's quote and writing:

Quote:
What evidence do we have that Fast & Furious was an incompetent attempt to catch bad guys and what evidence do we have that it was an incompetent attempt to introduce new gun control restrictions? Was it one or the other?

I think it was a bit of both. Of course, the intent is largely irrelevant. The outcome is that our government has broken the law, and is responsible for a great deal of bloodshed to come.
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No doubt, "our government" did break the law, likely in such manner that neither the king's horses nor the king's men could put it together again.

Having noted that, whom might it be that will bring prosecution, badly needed as it is?
 
alan @639,

You raise a very good point and prove that government rarely decreases in size....it only continues to grow and "eat out our substance".

In my opinion, ATF should have been un-funded long ago. Yet here we are in the midst of a "budget crisis" and not one of these elected things can raise the issue of cutting funding for an agency that has repeatedly demonstrated a callous disregard for the rule of law.
 
In my opinion, ATF should have been un-funded long ago. Yet here we are in the midst of a "budget crisis" and not one of these elected things can raise the issue of cutting funding for an agency that has repeatedly demonstrated a callous disregard for the rule of law.
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There's always hope that it could be defunded after August 2nd.
 
What evidence do we have that Fast & Furious was an incompetent attempt to catch bad guys and what evidence do we have that it was an incompetent attempt to introduce new gun control restrictions?
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The attempt to catch cartel kingpins by allowing these straw sales then waiting for the guns to show up at Mexican crime scenes is unbelievably incompetent. As in, too incompetent to be believed.

The attempt to introduce new gun control restrictions actually worked fairly well, right up until Agent Terry was killed. There were quite a few media stories about the problems with 90% of the guns in Mexican crimes being sold by US dealers along the border, things like that. Although the number has been dropped to 70% (and is still wildly inaccurate) those stories and the various calls for more gun control resulting from this operation persist. The new ATF rule on long gun sales and a press conference yesterday by pro-gun control Representatives are both responses to the Mexican situation.

I'd say that an attempt that continues to function after such a crippling scandal is at least competent, not incompetent.
 
Follow up email to Gunwalker Bill Newell

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What did he say on January 25th in a press conference again? Wasn't that when he lied and said there was never any gunwalking? Great job indeed.
 
I have no comment on the possible program in FL but Faux "News" is the propaganda arm of the extremely right wing Republican party. Given their complete lack of any attempt to be fair to Democrats and the current Administration and it's no wonder the White House isn't playing footsy with Faux "News". Not Nixon type tricks, mind you.
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I see.... unlike the NY Times, Washington Post, Newsweek, Time, PBS, Knight-Ridder papers, CNN, ABC news and NBC news who never tow the Democrat party line? I'm omitting shows like MSNBC's Chris "tingle up my leg" Matthews, just to be fair.

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What evidence do we have that Fast & Furious was an incompetent attempt to catch bad guys and what evidence do we have that it was an incompetent attempt to introduce new gun control restrictions? Was it one or the other? Was it both? I'm not sure what to think at this point.
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Evidence that it was an inept, incompetent attempt to catch "big fish" gunrunners can be found in...
  • the DOJ's inspector general report that chastises ATF for pursuing FFL audits and straw-purchasers instead of "major players" in gunrunning.
  • Agents have also stated the purpose of this felony stupid plan was to have straw buyers lead them to "higher level players" and potentially cartel members.
  • Statements by DOJ/ATF heads that it was a plan to shut down gunrunning.
Of course, when one looks at the methodology this whole rationale starts to look like an inept excuse to get the guns to Mexico. US agents are forbidden by treaty from operating in Mexico without the express consent and assistance of the MEXGOV. So, if they follow the guns to a house where the guns stay and the straw buyers leave, why not stake out the house and watch for the guns to move? Then interdict them before crossing the border? That would get you a "higher level" gunrunner. He could give you names in Mexico (possibly). Instead, ATF let the guns cross the border with no tracking. With no notification to the MEXGOV there was no chance to follow the flow, interdict the transfer or stop the transfer to illegal dealers in Mexico.

Evidence of "some other reason" --
  • The lack of tracking by the ATF by letting the guns go to Mexico.
  • The approval and authorizing of illegal straw-buys, in some cases, hundreds of guns to one individual alone- knowing they would not follow or interdict the guns.
  • The lack of explanation how ATF would connect-the-dots from straw-buy guns to cartel usage to indict anyone except the straw-buyers.
  • No explanation of how they planned to indict foreign nationals (cartel members) even if they were found with smuggled guns in Mexico.
  • The "giddy" elation of some Phoenix agents when US-made "Fast and Furious" guns turned up at Mexican crime scenes.
  • Knowing that the MEXGOV agents would use the spanish-language e-Trace to track those guns back to US origins.
  • The fact that "Fast and Furious" was a semi-covert operation not reported in DOJ/ATF budgets but "hidden" under the umbrella of the successful Project Gunrunner.
  • The aboslute stonewalling by DOJ/ATF when congress asks for briefings on the operation and/or details.
  • The fact that DOJ/ATF has not (that we know of yet) any concrete document detailing the planning of Fast and Furious and who authored and who authorized the plan.
  • Certain knowledge that guns smuggled into Mexico would be used for illegal purposes, including murder of civilians and/or government personnel.

Re: RICO charges...
It would require at least one or two dealers to come forward with allegations of coercion and threats that failure to participate would have dire consequences for them. Courts might reject threats of increased scrutiny and audits. However if the dealers claim those threats were made along with a statement like "we'll make up charges if we have to" then it might go somewhere. Especially if a dealer who opted out early found himself on the short end of some "compliance audit".

I think it's worth pointing out that the dealers who met with the ATF and AUSA's regarding their own liability were never given any letters validating their cooperation. I know that at least one dealer was told that they would NOT talk to him if his lawyer was present. While dealers were given assurances verbally, none of it was written down or in any way evidence that they were cooperating. Imagine if no one blew the whistle. Right now we could be hearing how these same dealers had a "known record" of illegally selling guns to straw-buyers to feed the Mexican drug cartels. By the time a court hearing comes up, the ATF agents and AUSA's could deny any such "agreement" existed or that such an agreement was a blanket immunity from prosecution.

Let's remember that BATF has a track record of luring citizens into making technical violations of the law unknowingly or unwittingly so they could "prove" their worth. That was the basis for the warrant against Randy Weaver. In the 70's and early 80's, over 75% of their cases were such "crimes". Enforcement against organized gunrunning and illegal sales amounted to less than 15% of their cases up through the 1980's.

Let's also remember than in the 70's ATF agents were filmed removing guns from a gunstore by jamming the guns into plastic trash cans and then throwing the cans into the back of a rental truck. Some agents were even filmed slamming stocks against the truck walls to break the stocks.
 
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I suppose there is a chance that someone in the ATF might have been working for a drug cartel. Lord knows enough Mexican government officials have been bribed.
 
This operation could only have been approved at the highest levels of government. It could not have been conducted by lower level managers.

Approvals would have been required by:

The US Attorney General, Sec of State, Director of Homeland Security, their counter parts on the Presidents Staff and ultimately POTUS himself.

Given the international issues involved, and the possible change in the Legislator, it is possible that Obama will join Nixon on the trash heap of presidential politics.
 
I don't understand how it's reasonable to expect the majority of the guns would end up in Mexico. Smuggling, requires two sides of a border. They had to know whatever violence they were exporting to Mexico, was also going to happen here. The weapon's tracking often stopped on this side of the border according to the agents.
Total chaos, was what they wanted. Here and there. It is what it is.
 
Total chaos, was what they wanted. Here and there.
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I agree and with great weight of consideration and serious though I have to agree that there was zero chance of this operation working as a law enforcement tool. This is absolute power run amok and done so with the malice of forethought to create chaos, regardless of the standing RICO laws this was a criminal enterprise in every sense of the word.

I am greatly disturbed to write such a paragraph but the truth is self-evident and I take no pleasure in it.... I take great pride in our nation but I cannot condone this action.
 
I am greatly disturbed to write such a paragraph but the truth is self-evident
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Yes it is. Any cursory glance at the death statistics along that border, shows they already have plenty of guns on that side of the fence. The serial number game has been disproven time after time thru the last year. The numbers are fraudulent. They have guns, a never ending supply, and only a small % originate thru FFL sales here.

There is no reason I can think of, to imagine that if I hand over 10 new AK rifles to some guy in Phoenix...that he is going to go to the trouble of smuggling them across some border. Field agents stated the tracking was stopped here by higher ups. Testimony shows they had suspicions the guns were staying here(immediate office reaction to news of the Giffords shooting). They did not lose control of any firearms.....they dispersed firearms.
They were arming them up and asking for The Gaza Strip. .50 cals...they couldn't even say no way to those...when they know lookouts are used up in the hills, here? Just too much fun to stop.

And someone, somewhere, said to themselves at least once(and maybe to others)...."if this mess gets 100% totally out of hand, no matter how bad it gets, we can still make it work for us..."

Heck, if you actually wanted a few guns to end up in Mexico the easy way, Honduras would be the way to go. ;) http://www.cipamericas.org/archives/3029
http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?encType=1&where1=Honduras&cp=14.974000~-86.266998&FORM=ATRCTN

Yeah, this episode is sickening.
 
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More documents from the DOJ are due today. We'll soon see this again...

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July 11, 2011

The Honorable Eric Holder
Attorney General
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avennue, NW
Washington DC 20530

Dear Attorney General Holder:

As our investigation in Operation Fast and Furious has progressed, we have learned that senior officials at the Department of Justice (DOJ), including Senate-confirmed political appointees, were unquestionably aware of the implementation of this reckless program. Therefore it is necessary to review communications between and among these senior officials. As such, please provide all records relating to communications between and among the following individuals regarding Operation Fast and Furious:

1. David Ogden, Former Deputy Attorney General;

2. Gary Grindler, Officer of the Attorney General and former Acting Deputy Attorney General;

3. James Cole, Deputy Attorney General;

4. Lanny Breuer, Assistant Attorney General;

5. Kenneth Blanco, Deputy Assistant Attorney General;

6. Jason Weinstein, Deputy Assistant Attorney General;

7. John Keeney, Deputy Assistant Attorney General;

8. Matt Axelrod, Associate Deputy Attorney General;

9. Ed Siskel, Former Associate Deputy Attorney General;

10. Brad Smith, Office of the Deputy Attorney General;

11. Kevin Carwhile, Section Chief, Capitol Case Unit; and

12. Joseph Cooley, Criminal Fraud Section.

These records should include e-mails, memoranda, briefing papers, and handwritten notes. Additionally, any records related to communications referring to a large firearms trafficking case within the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) or in Phoenix should be included in any production.

Please provide this information no later than July 18, 2011, at noon. If you have any questions regarding this request, please contact Tristan Leavitt in Ranking Member Grassley's office at (202) 224-5225 or Henry Kerner of Chairman Issa's Committee staff at (202) 225-5074. I look forward to receiving your response.

Sincerely,

Darrell Issa, Chairman, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

Charles Grassley, Ranking Member, Senate Committee on the Judiciary

cc: The Honorable Elijah E. Cummings, Ranking Member, House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform

The Honorable Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman, U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary
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Is it possible for an enterprise run so brilliantly, to avoid the temptation of using some federal funding to set up it's own FFL operations, rule out the possible citizen FFL whistleblowers, and get the non-tracking of firearms done at a more impressive rate?

Seems like it might have been a more efficient investigation all around...allowing much more non-tracking to happen. Almost disappointing they didn't take it up a notch.
 
I assume you were trying to be funny, alloy. Try harder... ;)

D.C. Councilman Phil Mendelson released the text of his emergency legislation to make the District a federal firearms licensee, able to sell and transfer guns to citizens.

The resolution calls on Mayor Vince Gray to appoint an agency to act as the FFL for the city, which currently has none and therefore no way to legally transfer handguns into the city since proprietor Charles Sykes closed the sole gun shop in D.C. in April.

Federal and district laws require handguns crossing the D.C. border to be shipped to an FFL before the owner can take possession of them. But critics say Mendelson's new measure won't do anything to get D.C. out of a lawsuit that's about to get pricey, and won't do anything to change the strict zoning rules that are keeping Sykes from reopening in the first place.

"They need to come to terms with the fact that the Second Amendment applies to them," Alan Gura, the attorney who is bringing the new lawsuit against D.C., said.
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Re the quote in post 654, I wonder as to how it is that D.C. continues to "thumb its' nose" at USSC rulings, or at least seems to so do. Some might find this question "off topic", however it strikes me as sort of interesting.
 
publius42 said:
D.C. Councilman Phil Mendelson released the text of his emergency legislation to make the District a federal firearms licensee, able to sell and transfer guns to citizens.
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What Alan Gura should do is to file an anti-trust lawsuit for restraint of trade and unfair business practices citing unfair competition. The city should not be going into business for the sole purpose of restraining other businesses.
 
Alan,

They can continue as long as they continue to be elected and the taxpayers continue to not mind the wasted money on the losing lawsuits.

JimPeel,

They are going into the gun business in an effort to stop Gura's lawsuit. He has already told them it will not work.
 
I assume you were trying to be funny, alloy.
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Probobly, but since the ATF decided to operate outside their rules, I'm not sure how it could be expected that they operated within their rules.

I question what new FFL applicants were approved during the time frame...and wonder if the ATF could avoid the temptation to run a couple of in house gunwalking emporiums.
Seems more efficient. All that new money, and nobody thought they could speed up the sales with a couple of storefronts, sans whistleblower FFL citizens?
 
Interesting article at Pajamas Media on the death of Jaime Zapata, the federal agent who was slain in Mexico. One of the guns recovered from the scene was a Draco AK pistol that could not be linked to Fast and Furious; because it came from an FFL in the Dallas Field area.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-family-of-slain-federal-agent-demands-answers/

The same article also notes a large number of Houston area weapons turning up in South and Central Mexico. In light of knowledge that Houston-area Carter's Country shops were cooperating with the ATF by making sales to suspected straw purchasers, it does raise an interesting question to how many of those firearms "got away" or whether there was another deliberate decision to walk guns into Mexico at the Houston and Dallas offices as well.

Still too early to say; but definitely some interesting leads to investigate.
 
Re the quote in post 657, assuming that the documents requested did not show up, as is perhaps the case, what happens now?

Can or will individuals be cited for contempt?
 
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