ATF ignores restraining order against business and raids Ares Armor

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IMightBeWrong

New member
I'm sure the criminals at the ATF will say, "The TRO only protected the customer list, and we just took inventory from the store, which was not protected by the TRO. Oh, was there a computer we accidentally grabbed? Wasn't that part of their inventory? Are you sure? We'll have to double-check that, and make sure...(six months later) OK, here's what's left of that computer....sorry".

Hopefully all these ATF criminals will be tried and convicted by our trustworthy, speedy and competent judicial system

(no, I didn't type that with a straight face)
 
Yes, but by law, 80% receivers aren't firearms and aren't under the authority of the ATF.

I'd really like to see the warrant the ATF had for this, and what its parameters were.
 
The BATFE claims that a type of 80 percent polymer lower being sold by Ares and others is a finished lower that was modified.

How does one go about getting a restraining order against a federal raiding party? :confused:

Could a meth maker get a restraining order against the DEA? :D
 
I get so tired of stories like this. It seems the rule of law really means nothing at all if you are employed by the government. I don't get it, polymer or metal an 80% receiver is an 80% receiver. Unless you do the work on it you cannot just put the parts in it and make it run. As TS said, it is not classified as a firearm. My big question is; What is the ATF going to do with the list? I thought it was illegal for the Federal government to maintain any list of firearms owners.
 
This is being talked about on a lot of forums.

Apparently, the lowers in question are made from polymer. The issue is if it was formed around a separate piece of polymer filling the FCG or if the lower was formed with the space for the FCG and then filled in with another polymer

The space for the FCG is a different color plastic. Making it easier for the layman to complete the lower.

The company says the lower is formed around the FCG piece. That seems totally legal. Of course BATF says different.

It didnt help that the company put up a billboard advertising "un-registered" AR-15's in the peoples republic of Kali.

Poke a hornets nest and you will likely get stung
 
Well, this all makes sense now. I can go purchase a sten gun receiver tube with a template on it to show me where to drill all the holes in it to make a working gun but I can't buy an AR lower with the holes marked to help me out there. Must be nice to make up the rules as you go. I guess the rules are different in Cal, but I thought the ATF was a federal unit. Just goes to show how utterly stupid I really am.
 
I don't get it, polymer or metal an 80% receiver is an 80% receiver.
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As other posters have attempted to explain, the ATF is claiming that the latest generation of these (EP Armory) polymer 80% lower receivers are being manufactured and then having the FCG pocket filled. That would give the ATF jurisdiction, because they would be firearms with the FCG pocket filled - not 80% receivers.

However, I happen to have 2 of the latest generation of those receivers (the latest to ship, anyway). I can tell you, at least to the limits of my experience, that the ONLY indications in these lowers, is that the FCG pocket 'block' was molded first. Then, the rest of the receiver was formed around it. And the block that fills the FCG pocket isn't something that can be removed without milling it out. It has notches and protrusions all around it, that, after the receiver is molded around it, interlock with about 18-20 ribs in the receiver walls, 4 partially-formed holes where the trigger and hammer pin holes get drilled, the unfinished trigger hole, and notches where the selector holes get drilled. It's also a tougher polymer than the receiver, itself. So, attempting to pry the FCG pocket 'block' out will destroy the receiver.


The receivers in the middle of all of this:
(Sorry about the odd sizes. The forums got angry about file size and I had to do some non-standard cropping to minimize the "noise" in the photos.)
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And... where mine are now - hanging from a nail, next to the unsafe black powder shotgun - because they're trash.
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Every dimension on these things is wrong, before you even start removing material. (Don't waste your money, even if things do turn out okay for EP Armory; unless they fix the mold(s). They'll give you nothing but headaches.)
I've considered posting a full review and list of defects, incorrect dimensions, and improperly located drill guides; but it really doesn't matter. The bottom line is: Don't waste your money. Even if you mill everything perfectly, the rest of the receiver will cause problems.

I did get one of the receivers to run (for the most part :rolleyes:), despite the problems with the lower. But, a keen observer will notice that there is no selector/safety. That's because the receiver's overall height is too short (the deck is too low) and the selector hole drill guides are too low.....
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I do not understand why this company put itself into this position. Ares Armor seems like a legitimate company. Why didn't they just serialized the receivers, completed or not? Especially if they're showing their customers how to complete the lowers. If the lowers are sold by Ares Armor as incomplete lowers, when the customer completes the lowers, and then drills where shown to then complete the lower, then the customer would have created felonious object, in the form of an unregistered lower.

Did Ares make these lowers, with instructions on how to complete the lowers, with the intention of their customers not completing the lowers? Thats a bit unbelievable.
 
If the lowers are sold by Ares Armor as incomplete lowers, when the customer completes the lowers, and then drills where shown to then complete the lower, then the customer would have created felonious object, in the form of an unregistered lower.
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80% receivers are not illegal to possess, finished or otherwise.
Homebuilt firearms are perfectly legal to own, as long as they don't violate any applicable law, such as being an unregistered machine gun.
"Unregistered" AR lower... there is no such thing, on a Federal level.

And, Ares didn't make them. Ares was a distributor/retailer. EP Armory was/is the manufacturer.
 
I would like to see the temporary restraining order and get some other information about it. A TRO against a federal governmental agency, especially a law enforcement agency, would be rather extraordinary.
 
I have built more than a few plastic injection molds,and some molded around another insert made of metal or another plastic.

Melted plastic carries a lot of heat.It has to give up the heat to turn to solid.Plastic is also a poor conductor of heat.Like a water cooled engine,a mold has a water cooling system within the steel.Ultimately,the water carries the heat away after the steel absorbs it.
As the plastic is injected,the outer skin of the flow front sort of unrolls,then stops moving.A thin skin is chilled,but molten plastic flows within the shot.
So,now two technologies diverge.There are two plans,based on different priorities.With plan a,the insert is molded first,then it serves as a core for the second material to be molded over.A soft touch toothbrush might be an example.Keyboard keys,the white letter is molded first,that remains on the core,but is shuttled to a different cavity and the black pad is overmolded.

A different tech is co-injection,say you were making a gear,and you wanted the outer section of an expensive engineering resin,but the core could be a commodity resin,like recycled laundry jugs.They can shoot a dose of the first material,which will form the outer skin,then pack it out with cheap resin.It sounds like the insert process would be legal ,as the core is formed first.IMO,even the co-injection process should be legal as it is one part molded of two materials and the will have a molecular bond.In any case,it is not the process they use.

As to their quality control,unfortunately,reverse engineering to a molded part requires great skill at estimating shrink.Ballpark crystalline resins at maybe .016 to .022 an inch and amorphous resins at .006 to .008.

Remember the skin hardens first,thickest cross section last.So the shrink is pulled through the part still molten.Sink,voids,etc.

A requisite of molded part design is uniform wall sections.molding a very thick wall,like a solid section of receiver to be milled out,just will not make quality.Molding around the block they insert is a compromise.

Here is what is going to happen.I'm all for 2nd Ammendment freedom,this 80% stuff is a loophole workaround the spirit of the law requiring tracability on firearms.Don't kill the messenger,I didn't make or advocate the law.It annoys and frustrates the powers that be.So,what that will do is fire up the outrage,the drama,and we will get more restrictive laws jammed down our throat.I won't give examples,trolls read this,too.The 80% cute trick will end up hurting us.
 
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Public Doesn't Understand What This is All About.

Most of the general public, doesn't have an understanding what this is all about. Thus, it's easy for the media to point at Ares Arms and portray them as attempting to help people build machine guns with no serial numbers and no government "registration". Even one of the ladies on Fox News said this was about building "assault riflles". With the mis information out there, along with a lack of understanding of the main issue (are 80% receivers legal or not), this will have no ill effects on the reputations of the BATFE agents, in my opinion.
 
I just took a quick look at the pix.I know how to see plastic flow through a mold.The shot is flowing probably from the web the grip screw anchors in,forward,though I am unsure where it is gated.What I can see is the last place to fill.The flow splits around the core that forms the mag well,then comes back together midline of the wall in the front of the magwell.You can see the knit line where the flow front comes together.Venting was inadequate,the imperfect former at the top inner edge tells me air was trapped.The trapped air gets super compressed,and heats up,degrading the plastic trying to weld together at the knit line.I predict split front wall of the mag well.If the hinge pin holes were formed by a core,rather than drilled through ,there will be a weld line on the forward thin section in front of the pin.There will be a weld line on the back side of every core.Every core,every flow front,must be vented.Lack of venting makes weak weld lines.A core forms the buffer tube hole.There will be a weld line at 12 oclock in the thin section.Weld lines do not have to be weak,but poor venting weakens them,and,I must confess,I have forgotten which molecular bond is which:Brownian,Vandewall's,and covalent,but one is the molecular chain,like a spaghetti noodle,itself,you break the noodle,one,the noodles tangle up like felt,and the one at a weld line is the weakest,Brownian,I think,its just the noodles stuck together because the were pushed against each other..like woodgrain,the kind that splits.

Just for fun,most high performance engineering resins are hygroscopic.They suck water out of the air.Run Lexan through a desicant bed dryer till it is dry,20,30 minutes exposure to air humidity,you might lose 50% of the engineering properties of the resin.See anysurface splay,sink,etc,beware.
 
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Here is what is going to happen.I'm all for 2nd Ammendment freedom,this 80% stuff is a loophole workaround the spirit of the law requiring tracability on firearms.Don't kill the messenger,I didn't make or advocate the law.It annoys and frustrates the powers that be.So,what that will do is fire up the outrage,the drama,and we will get more restrictive laws jammed down our throat.I won't give examples,trolls read this,too.The 80% cute trick will end up hurting us.
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How much of a loophole workaround is it? I understand there are people gaming the system, but the rule is what it is for a reason.

Let's say the ATF ruled (or Congress legislated) that an incomplete receiver is a firearm. I'm sure that not every company that manufactures frames has a foundry or forge. If a manufacturer buys a casting to machine into a frame, is the casting going to have to be serialized when it leaves the foundry? What happens when the casting is machined and the serial number is ground off? And does the foundry have to have a FFL? What happens when a factory buys steel tubing to build Sten receivers? Serialize the pipe? If someone buys steel tubing for something else, do we regulate that, too?
 
wayne,you are talking about practical matters and common sense.

have you ever listened to P.Morgan?Nancy P?Dianne F? Chris M?Do you suppose ramming through some "meaningful gun legislation"is on the President's legacy bucket list?Note the new surgeon general nominee.

There is pressure to serialize firing pin tips.

Have you never seen law get passed over ILLUSION?

Pick any major issue we face today...Illusion of a problem,illusion of a solution,and golly gee,look real close,are you finding any disillusionment?I rather hope we all do.The discomfort of disillusionment is the birthpain of Truth.
 
ATF ignores restraining order against business and raids Ares Armor
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Didn't the BATFEces learn from all the trouble they got in for Fast & Furious aka Gunwalker?

Oh wait........There was no accountability or consequences for that either. :mad:
 
thallub said:
How does one go about getting a restraining order against a federal raiding party?

Could a meth maker get a restraining order against the DEA?
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KyJim said:
I would like to see the temporary restraining order and get some other information about it. A TRO against a federal governmental agency, especially a law enforcement agency, would be rather extraordinary.
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These two posts hint at the same problems I have with the story, as it's been told. I'm trying to get ahold of the warrant and affidavit in support thereof, and I'll post them here if I do.

That said, the way I understand the story:
  1. BATFE wanted the lowers and a customer list.
  2. Ares initially agreed to turn over the lowers.
  3. Ares goes and gets a restraining order.
  4. BATFE gets TRO modified, and raids.

If EP's lowers were illegal to begin with, why did BATFE negotiate for a voluntary surrender of them? Why didn't they just show up with a warrant in the first place? I don't recall any LE agency ever negotiating for the voluntary surrender of contraband. Last time I checked, SOP was to go get a warrant and show up unannounced so that the bad guys couldn't destroy it.
 
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