assualt rifles in civie hands in europe

[Brick]

However, the G3K, like all imported assault rifles and machine guns made since 1968, is not available to American civilians at any price. In Switzerland, rifles like the G3K are owned by virtually every male member of the population between the ages of 18 and 55. Switzerland has one of the world's lowest crime rates.

http://members.aol.com/ab763/g3k.htm

1. Any other cool nations like this? If so, what isn't cool about them?
2. Show that to Diene Feinstein. What would she say?

 

[TimRB]

What would Dianne Feinstein say?

I'm sure Dianne Feinstein would be very pleased to have the same level of gun control in America as exists in Switzerland. Do a Google research project on Swiss gun control and you'll come away convinced that Switzerland is not the promised land that so many think it is.

Tim

 

[k_dawg]

i believe it is due to service being compulsary, and that each able bodied male is considered to be in the state guard.. and that rifle is their service issue, and can not be used for "personal reasons"...

 

[BlackRazor]

Yeah, I did do a search on gun ownership in Switzerland, and it is better than the US. An ordinary civilian can buy all the pistols, semi-auto rifles and high cap mags he/she wants, and they never had an AWB in Switzerland. There are more public shooting ranges per capita in Switzerland than in the USA. Owning full-auto in Switzerland is much easier than here in the US, espcially since it is outright illegal in many states, which reminds me of another problem the Swiss don't have to deal with, state laws! No NFA, no ATF, no import ban, no AW ban, no destructive devices ban, need I go on? Don't know about CCW, but hey, that's illegal here too! (Kalifornistan)

 

[Tamara]

BlackRazor,

which reminds me of another problem the Swiss don't have to deal with, state laws!

It is my understanding that different cantons do, indeed, have differing laws and regulations.

But let's ask our resident Swiss member. Mussi, what do you say?

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98729&page=1

Gun laws are pretty cool, but not quite easy. Remember, we need permits to purchase anything semi-auto, lever-action, pump-action and some bolt-actions. No permits on airguns, as they are not firearms. Full-auto need permits, that are quite easily obtainable if you have a decent safe at home. Shooting them needs a second fee.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78459

Short abbreviation of Swiss gun laws:

1. Permit to purchase handguns, semi-auto rifles, pump and lever
action guns. Also, you need a permit to purchase foreign milsurp bolt
actions. Semi-auto rifles must not have been converted from full-auto
rifles, except for Swiss Army guns (else they're considered
full-auto, with all consequences).

2. With a specific permit and safe storage at home, purchase of
machine guns, silencers and other prohibited stuff is possible. We
don't have a closed registry for machine guns like the US. Strangely
enough, purchase, carrying, transfer and sale of lasers for guns (like
LaserGrip is prohibited unless you get an exemption permit.

3. Carrying is discretionary issue, where it is almost impossible to
get a permit in most cantons. Illegal concealed carrying is rampant.

4. No feature, magazine or assault weapon bans.

5. Airguns are not considered firearms for all pratical purposes.

Hmmmm...

I think I'll take the laws where I live, thanks. I don't need a "permit" to purchase anything except NFA weapons, there are no "safe storage" requirements, and CCW is "shall-issue".

 

[jefnvk]

It almost seems like a trade off. Do you want to register everything and be able to buy anything, or register some/none and be restricted from a lot.

TO me, I guess, it would depend on what entails registering. If its like the NFA registry, yes, that would be more of a problem. If its like MI's handgun registry, its not too bad. Takes about 5 min at the sheriff's office before and after the purchase, and costs $5.

Personally I am leaning towards the everything registered and able to buy anything, esp. since they mentioned that getting a permit is not hard.

 

[BlackRazor]

jefnvk,

I agree. The only problem with registration is that people say it leads to confiscation. However, Switzerland has clearly demonstrated that that is not always the case.

 

[Handy]

Yeah, no permit, just a $15 "background check fee" here in NV. I guess a permit by any other name is not so sweet.

It sounds like there might be more wickets to go through, but at the end of the day you can own much more stuff for less hassle and less money.

 

[Tamara]

Handy,

Yeah, no permit, just a $15 "background check fee" here in NV.

Can't speak for NV, but in TN or GA, the background check (and its attendant fee) only applies to purchases from FFL's. To me, the ability to know the disposition of every firearm through every transaction guts the meaning of the 2nd Amendment far more than the ability to have an extra notch on one's selector lever...

Maybe I'm anachronistic, but I think that the real purpose of the RKBA has nothing to do with having neat guns I saw in my last game of Rainbow Six and everything to do with the armed citizenry providing at least some small deterrent to enemies foreign and domestic.

 

[Handy]

Tamara,

I know what you're getting at and agree in principle, but there's spirit and reality. While it might be comforting that the government doesn't know about that Arisaka, it also might be nice to be able to safeguard your freedoms with an affordable modern military rifle, rather than the $30,000 art objects that class IIIs have become.

Hey, it might even be a good thing if the government knew exactly how many millions of Uzis and M-60s they'd be facing.

Either way, freedoms are being pinched. The anti's in the US have chosen making the guns hard to get, instead of monitoring the owners. They don't know what guns we have, but they sure know what kind of guns we DON'T have.

 

[TimRB]

"The only problem with registration is that people say it leads to confiscation. However, Switzerland has clearly demonstrated that that is not always the case."

Registration is the main problem in my view. As you note, Switzerland seems to show no tendency to confiscate, but that could change at any time. One thing is certain, though...every place that has experienced confiscation required registration first. Registration is the most treacherous step on the slippery slope.

Tim

 

[jefnvk]

Registration is the most treacherous step on the slippery slope.

Yep. Registration in itself doesn't bother me. What does is that the same registration could be used for confiscation. If someone could come up with a registration system that would never be abused or used for any confiscation scheme, I probably wouldn't go against it. But noone will, because these things have a tendency to be started by people who support 'turn them all in'.

That being said, if they would re-open MG registration, There wouldn't be much you couldn't buy.

 

[Tamara]

However, Switzerland has clearly demonstrated that that is not always the case.

Should correctly read:

However, Switzerland has, so far, demonstrated that that is not always the case.

One big difference: Ask the Swiss government how many civilian-owned guns are in Switzerland, and they'll tell you. Any American government official who claimed he could guess the number in the US to the closest five million is talking out his arse. A scoped 10" Contender, whereabouts unknown, is of much more deterrent value than an P-90 whose location can be determined by anybody with access to MapQuest.com. Yes, they're all infringements, but I'd rather keep my anonymity and have to do workarounds for cool toys than vice-versa.

(The funny thing is that prior to '86, you couldn't give machineguns away. Now that they're the forbidden fruit, though... )

 

[BlackRazor]

?

Mapquest isn't going to tell you anything about where anyone's guns are, registered or not. So what if I registered a dozen AK's to 555 Maple Drive? Only an idiot would keep them there when the SHTF. What are they going to do, confiscate all the guns in country in one day? I think there will be plenty of warning before they search your place. A dozen registered, missing AK's is a much bigger deterent than the possibility of a single shot handgun. A lot of this "I'll take my unregistered Enfield over a registered M16" sounds like sour grapes to me.

 

[TimRB]

"A dozen registered, missing AK's is a much bigger deterent than the possibility of a single shot handgun."

Fair enough, as long as there's who can use them while you're sitting in jail.

Tim

 

[BlackRazor]

"Officer, I would love to give you all my guns, but when I heard they were banned I destroyed the nasty things. Dropped them out in the lake a while ago..."

What am I being arrested for again?

 

[TimRB]

Here's the scenario I'm envisioning:

"Mr. Blackrazor, we're the police, and we're here to help. Specifically, we're here to help you load all your registered firearms into our truck."

"I'm so sorry, but when I heard they were banned, I dumped them all in a lake." (Or they were stolen, or lost, or were sold, or given away, or already turned in, or...)

"That's very interesting, but according to our records you still have them. Would you please turn around and put your hands against the wall?"

Tim

 

[BlackRazor]

Go for it. I'd like to see a conviction held up with no evidence. Who's to say I didn't actually destroy them? If the country has regressed to the point where people can be convicted of possession without physical evidence, I would not be living at a postal address.

 

[Brick]

Here's the scenario I'm envisioning:

"Mr. Blackrazor, we're the police, and we're here to help. Specifically, we're here to help you load all your registered firearms into our truck."
[/QOUTE]

"What registered firearms..."

The first thing everyone must do is CHECK the door before you open it. As soon as you hear a "KNOCK-KNOCK...It's the cops." bellowed out from outside. Better have backup inside while you have a .45 in hand. (don't forget to practice the fast draw)

"I'm so sorry, but when I heard they were banned, I dumped them all in a lake." (Or they were stolen, or lost, or were sold, or given away, or already turned in, or...)

What you have to do is make up a story about what you did with them, complete with false records that sounds believable, but hard to confirm.

But the best defense is to have 90% of your collection unregistered, or untraceable. So by now you should have zeroed in on your best .22 semiautomatic rifle, long-range rifle, assualt rifle, and pistols. A couple of MAC-10s would be nice too

But then you have a few worthless REGISTERED firearms ready to ditch. Maybe barely operational. And you should have a replacement carry weapon in case they want to keep that too. Have the unregistered ones hidden in a well concealed place.

"That's very interesting, but according to our records you still have them. Would you please turn around and put your hands against the wall?"

"uhh.....ok...1911 in hand, what are you arresting me for Officer?

Here's where it gets ugly. Very ugly, very quickly.

Better is to have a backup mobile home unregistered stashed away in some friend's farm woods. Ultimate backup.


(For your FA guns, what would be cool is to have it registered in someone else's name that doesn't exist)

 

[Tamara]

"BlackRazor",

Mapquest isn't going to tell you anything about where anyone's guns are, registered or not.

MapQuest is going to tell Agent Schmuckatelli where EVERYTHING you have on a Form Four is, or at least where it should be. Not being able to account for it is a Federal Felony in and of itself. To insist otherwise merely indicates your level of (in)experience with NFA weapons, and the incorrect premises your arguments are based on.

For this you are willing to sell my birthright for a mess of pottage?