Assault weapons ban lifted...good thing?

Ex-Corpus Christi Police Officer Here!

Let's face it..........99% of the idiots I arrested with guns were packing garbage! Cheap Raven .25 autos and off-brand .380's. Your average criminal buys junk.

The law was enacted by people who aren't gun owners.....trying to get the votes of other non-gun owners.

It is a great thing that the political climate during the election prevented the renewal of the ban.

Unfortunately, my high capacity Glock Mags and Pre-ban AR-15 Match aren't worth CRAP anymore. Oh well, a small price to pay for freedom!!! :)
 
SIG-Fan:

I believe that your understanding of America, it's laws and traditions, as well as your understanding of automatic weapons is unfortunately sparse. Years ago, I worked in what was then West Germany for a while, Weisbadden, please pardon my possible misspelling, so I knew, or had learned something of Germany, at least at that time.

Regarding automatic weapons, in the 70 years since the enactment of the National firearms Act of 1934, there is no record of the illegal use of a legally owned machinegun in this country. American machine gun owners seem to be particularly law abiding types, possibly due to the expense, the time and the effort expended in legally acquiring examples of the genre.

I noticed that you had mentioned "Miller v. state". Actually it was Miller v U.S., heard in the U.S. Supreme Court in 1939. It dealt with the possession and transportation across state lines, of an unregistered "short barreled shotgun". Automatic weapons or machine guns weren't involved at all. In the original case, two gentlemen, Miller and Layton thought to have been operating an illegal whiskey still, were found in possession of a short barreled shotgun which had been transported across state lines. They were charged with violation of the 1934 Act. At District Court level, the case was dismissed, the trial judge having found the 1934 law unconstitutional. The federal government appealed to Supreme Court, the highest court in the land. The court ruled that a short barreled shotgun was not a "militia arm", therefore posession of such was not constitutionally protected. Strange to note, tis finding flew in the fact of historical fact, for short barreled shotguns had been issued by the military, to U.S. troops and had seen service in World War 1, as well as other military acctions between WW 1 and WW2. Such fact, if brought to the attention of the court might well have caused them to reject the governments case. Interestingly Miller neither appeared before the Court, nor was he represented by legal counsel before The Court. The court heard only from government attorneys, people who clearly would not bring to the courts attention, evidence that would weaken or possibly destroy the case they were presenting. Therefore, The Court lacked "offical legal notice" as to historical fact, and individual members of the court, men who had possibly had military service, chose not to consider what they themselves might have seen or personally experienced. The 1934 Act was upheld, though argument about what the court actually meant carries on to this day.

Respecting your reference to "spraying the countryside with bullets", while I myself am not a machine gun owner, I have fired light automatic weapons, including the MP-5, the Thompson Sub Machine Gun, and the U.S. M-16, selective fire service rifle, one of such is owned by a friend of mine. I fired it once, first with a "short magazine", 5 rounds, for familizarition, with selector set on semi-automatic. After that I fully loaded a 20 round magazine, put the selector on automatic and fired 5 bursts from one 20 round magazine, an average of 4 rounds per trigger press. The countryside was hardly sprayed with bullets.

Finally, one hears a great deal of comment to the effect that "nobody needs those things". Re this, I submit that "need" doesn't even come close to entering the equation. What is involved re automatic weapons is desire to own the things, the abilityand willingness to pay quite high prices, and the ability of the individual to obtain government clearance for the purchase of such arms.

Porsche automobiles are high performance vehicles, some models capable of attaining speeds in excess of 150 MPH, correct me if I'm wrong. How many people "need" to own such automobiles, racing drivers excepted, and they usually drive rather than own the cars. Anyone who can pay the price can buy one, no? "Need" is simply not a factor, same as is the case where the individual or individuals lawfully acquire machine guns. "Need" plays no role whatever, though wants or desired obviously do.

When next you find the odd moment, consider the foregoing. Meanwhile, seasons greetings to you and yours. By the way, one needs to remember that the laws and traditions in one country will differ from those of another country. This is not to say that one set is superior to the other, but rather to note that they are "different". Let others determine or argue as to which is "better", for the final decision there depends on how one spells "better".
 
hi allan and shaggy.

@shaggy
your arguments seem quite convincing, if you consider the barriers of a regular civilian in order to get one of these guns. (permission+high costs)
but what about an mac10 or m16 with FA. anyone could afford one of these things...
however, you are right, never shot a FA gun. things are handled different over here, if you are not in the army or a police officer or a collector you won't ever come close to one of these things. during the time i spent in maryland (2001-2002) i didn't get the opportunity to shoot any gun. as far as i know, theres a 10round restriction in MD, so there wouldn't have been any sense in FA guns, anyway...

@alan. i certainly think the german way of handling guns is the better one. not because the FA guns, but because of the regular semis, awailable to everyone. i mean think about it, if u considder there where 250 gun murders in 2000 while 11000 guns murders in us (refering to michael moore). ok, the us is three times as big as germany, but this still just would be 750 gun murders (therefore less than 10% of the us gun crimes...)
i mean, what's the big deal of a permission for guns like in germany? i think that's a good way and a good compromise between gun-owners and gun-haters...
...i allmost forgot it. i live 20 miles away from Wiesbaden. that the capital of the state where i live, named Hessen.
 
something to add:

i neither "need" a gun, i WANT to have one. therefore i never referred to the word "need" in any of my posts...
 
but what about an mac10 or m16 with FA. anyone could afford one of these things...

Mac 10s are around $3,000 now. M16s go for around $11,000 and up.

That's 4,432 and 16,251 marks, respectively.

As for the murder rate, I'm willing to bet that at least 95% (assuming that number was for murders in which a firearm was used, and not the total U.S. murder rate) of those crimes were committed by people who purchased their firearms illegally, or stole them. Meaning more laws aren't going to stop them from purchasing more firearms illegally. All they do it disarm the people who legally purchase firearms (among other reasons) in order to protect them and their families against those who purchase them illegally for use in crimes. What good is it to have people have to get government permission to obtain a firearm, when the gang banger down the street doesn't have to, because he buys them illegally out of a guy's trunk, or steals them.
 
hi,
what makes a FA m4 carbine that expensive? a semi-auto m16 is about 800 bucks in us, as far as i know. well, at least in germany are m16 copies made in germany about 2000 euros...whats the big deal to change a semi into a full auto, so that it is worth 11000 bucks?
 
what makes a FA m4 carbine that expensive?
Because back in 1986, the government decided they would prohibit the registration of machineguns for civilian use. So there is now a fixed number of machineguns for the average person to purchase and with more and more people wanting them, price goes up.

One thing you seem to not see is that a criminal in the US can have ANY machinegun manufactured anywhere in the world if he desires one. Just like cocaine, if you want it, someone will supply it. The fact that few criminals do use fully automatic weapons should imply they are not the best thing in the world for killing people.

There was a time back in the early 1900s when the Generals running the army thought that a semi-automatic rifle was useless because the troops would waste too many bulllets.
 
SIG-FAN:

1. I had mentioned YOUR reference to the Miller case. I had made reference to this "needs" as opposed to "wants" business.

2. Maryland is one of those limits on magazine capacity states. I do not know why they bother, other than to say that Maryland has some strange laws. I also believe that Maryland forbids the ownership of automatic weapons to private citizens. Not all states do. Pennsylvania, where I currently live, does not forbid such ownership, though federal clearance is still required. Then there is the question of cost. Resulting from ill advised federal legislation passed in 1986, the cost of transferable automatic weapons has increased sharply. This has been mentioned in a previous post, which you might have seen. Limits on magazine capacity are no longer a part of federal law, as the Assault Weapons Ban, an example of legislative foolishness, expired on 13 September 2004.

3. As to your question regarding "what is the big deal of a permission for guns ...", interesting question there. In my view, it becomes a question of principle and philosophy. Government is the servant, not the master of the people and the individual citizen. Some would have it that government is the master, an idea that I and many others disagree with. So, when an inherently individual right, that being the right of self defense, a right that must include the ability to possess and acquire such personal weapons as are suitable to ones defense of self and family, is reduced to a privilege for which government permission must be sought, essential rights are lost, for the government can, one day grant permission, while denying it the next day, or it can selectively grant or deny permission. In such case, the government has become the master, while the citizens are servants, or worse. I find this less than acceptable. "The German Way" might well work for you. That does not mean that it would work for others, nor does it mean that others would, given the option, choose as you have.

4. As to "compromising" with the gun haters, which you also asked about, consider this. When an individual or group(s) have repeatedly and publicly stated that it is their intention and ultimate goal to destroy rights, usage and traditions that you hold dear, such is the case with what you describe as the "gun haters" in the U.S., how could you possibly consider "compromise" with them? Additionally, when in the past, you had attempted to "compromise" with them it turned out to be a "one way street", for while they took whatever you offered, they always came back for more. Where is even the possibility of compromise, compromise being a situation where each side gives up something?

5. I have no idea as to the murder rate in Germany, so I will take your word for the number you mentioned. Regarding the output of Mr. Moore, given his demonstrated tendencies toward a certain looseness with the facts, I would not put to much faith in his output.
 
hi allan,
when i was in the us, i was reading occasionally some gunmagazines, where i found some companies offering tuning kits for semi-auto ar15 changing to full auto. the kits were just a few hundred bucks, not more. so why paying 11000 for an m16 when you can get a fully automatic ar15 for maybe 1000 bucks or so? ...
i just did a little resarch at google, the data provided by more seems to be quite reliable, just type "murder statistics USA" and you'll get the data...
the scary thing is, that a significant number of murders are commited by people going crazy...murder w/in the families (wife cheated on her husband), but also things like conflicts with neighbours, collegues, the boss are solved with guns...thats quite scary...just watch at google...

the reason, why i'm certainly convinced by the "german way" (silly word :rolleyes: ) is that your criminal reccord (i hope u know what i mean, i just dont know the proper word) is checked, you have to pass a test, where you have to prove that u know how to handle guns (eg. not pointing the muzzle at other, what to do when your gun jams, ect.). therefore, criminals cannot get a gun legally, accidents are reduced (no german hunter would nearly get any idea like putting a loaded gun on his dog back!). kids dont get guns, very important! its essentially like your permission for machineguns. i mean you dont seem to complain about that permission, so why should you complain for a semi-auto permission. i think, all of u guys here just want just reliable, non-criminal and matured people to own guns, don't you?!? Well, at least i wouldn't want any convicted criminal or some proven loony in my neighbourhood, having the legal permission to own guns!

-sig-fan
 
criminals cannot get a gun legally
Criminals cannot get guns legally in the US either.

As murder is illegal, why should breaking a law on getting a gun worry them?

accidents are reduced
Accidents have been declining for decades. Laws don't prevent accidents, training does.

kids dont get guns
Kids don't get guns in the US either unless under adult supervision.

I acquired my first firearm when I was 12 years old and haven't killed anyone yet, either by accident or on purpose.

its essentially like your permission for machineguns. i mean you dont seem to complain about that permission, so why should you complain for a semi-auto permission.

We do complain. It is just not useful to complain about the machinegun laws at this time because of misinformation, ignorance and prejudice. We do not want any other "classes" of guns to fall under that ban. The recently deceased "Semi-Automatic Assault Weapon" ban proves the uselessness of gun bans. It had ZERO effect on crime in this country.

All gun bans and restrictions violate our Constitution. Years of brainwashing are gradually removing that belief from the collective minds of Americans.
 
hi hk,

"Accidents have been declining for decades. Laws don't prevent accidents, training does."

as far as i know there are still many hunting accidents in the us. training doesnt help anything, as long as u dont know the basic rules about handling guns. i feel better, if i know that my neighbour at the shooting range has prooven in a test that he know how to handle them. i neither want anyone driving a car without drivin license near me.

in 1998 974 shooting accidents in the US
in 2004 32 shooting accidents in germany

NOW TELL ME THAT SOME TESTS ARE NOT NECESARY!!!

how can accidents happen? if someone without experience is able to buy a gun, without knowing how to use it! in germany, you can get a gun, but you have to proove first that you know how to handle guns. thats why there allmost no shooting accidents in germany.

do you even give a damn about anyone who died because some idiot shot him by accident, or why can't you just understand that a test (similar to the driving license test, but other questions, of course) will save lifes???

souces:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/ihea/hea1998.html
http://www.abschaffung-der-jagd.de/gefahr_durch_Jagdunfaelle/256.html


"Kids don't get guns in the US either unless under adult supervision.

I acquired my first firearm when I was 12 years old and haven't killed anyone yet, either by accident or on purpose"

sure they do. think about columbine, they got their guns LEGALLY at shotshows, although they were teenagers. thats fact. period

its good to know that u didnt kill anyone. but not all teenagers have an easy time at highschool while being bullied and beeten up by others...some of these kids seek revenge...

"Criminals cannot get guns legally in the US either.
As murder is illegal, why should breaking a law on getting a gun worry them?"

what should them prevent of getting a gun legaly, if there aren't any restrictions and gun permissions...? what about loonies gettin a gun? they are not nesserarily convicted for a crime, but still i dont want any psycho to have a gun. :mad: :mad:
 
think about columbine, they got their guns LEGALLY at shotshows, although they were teenagers. thats fact. period
They DID NOT get their guns legally. They were under age and talked some adults into purchasing the guns for them. The guns were purchased at a gun show but the adults STILL had the same paperwork to purchase the guns because they bought them from a licensed dealer. Those adults were arrested for providing the guns.

in 1998 974 shooting accidents in the US
in 2004 32 shooting accidents in germany

NOW TELL ME THAT SOME TESTS ARE NOT NECESARY!!!
And exactly how many hunters are there in the US vs. Germany? The comparison is invalid.

what should them prevent of getting a gun legaly, if there aren't any restrictions and gun permissions...? what about loonies gettin a gun? they are not nesserarily convicted for a crime, but still i dont want any psycho to have a gun.

Criminals, psychos, loonies, etc. DO NOT go into gun stores and buy firearms legally. Gun laws DO NOT prevent criminals from acquiring firearms. A new report from the government (Gun Violence: Justice Department Study Shows 79 Percent of Criminals Obtained Firearms From Illegal Sources) confirms what we already know. If gun laws were effective in preventing crime, why does England have such a problem with gun crimes (Violent crime 'four times higher' than reported ) when civilian ownership is completely illegal?
 
I dont mean to sound mean. But.........
I was in the USAF recently, and just seperatedunder honorable conditions. I carried various versions of all sorts of weapons that joe citizen cant get. Some I do not think should be allowed, but for the fact that there are no safe way to operate them (mk19 machine grenade launcher). Does that mean that they shouldn't be allowed, I do not believe that is MY call. Some people may have the means to operate it safely, and if they are willing to take the liability of such ownership, then they should. That said, operating a weapon such as you mention takes a LOT of practice, and isn't viable except for in a few situations. The military (of all organizations) stresses semi-auto fire for many reasons. Most importantly, most FA or 3 round burst weapons are only accurate (using 3 rd burst or FA) out to about 15 meters. They are expensive to obtain, and operate. Honestly I could take a $800 ar-15 with a 20 barrel, and cause more meyham than most averge citizens out there with a FA weapon. Why? Shot placement, extensive knowledge of said weapon. BUT, here is the kicker. I am an adult, that said, I am liable for any and all of my actions. I do not wish to go around hurting people, nor do I wish to be punished for it. I could take a piece of pine 2X4 and kill with it, but should that be a NFA weapon because I put a rusty nail through it?

With regard to criminals and guns.
Why would one in the crimial enterprize go through the trouble of getting (cough, fingerprinted, background checked, etc) if he/she knew that these things could be used to ID them later?) I think I would just pay some illegal imprter to get one. Any ammount of laws will not stop the illegal obtaining of weapons that are illegal. Look how much $ has been put into stopping drugs? I find such "blissninny" whining to be based more on one's skewed view of their role in our society. Just because YOU do not think its right, or needed, or whatever does not mean YOU have the RIGHT to say its wrong, etc for the next person. There are some universal truths, and they are simple, if you think about it. An INDIVIDUALS right to choose for themselves should not be limited unless it has an ADVERSE and NEGATIVE affect on others. Citing other's posts about legally obtained NFA weapons, one could actually say that they are actually affecting society less than the illegal glock 9mm that the drug dealer bought down the street. Does that mean that glock 9mm should be illegal just because someone committed a crime with one like it?

I can guarentee without fail, that more legal Sig handguns of the model, caliber, and even metal treatment type that you have, have been used in more crimes than all of the legally obtained machine guns in the united states combined. Quit whining, this is a philisophical debate that has no merit, as it is all about "possible this', "maybe that" that lacks actual histoical significance of any type.

With regard to limiting the rights of the law abiding because of criminal use of like products, I have this to say. Go into your garage, look at your car. The make, model and year. Do you particularly like your car? Has a car like it been used in a crime? I imagine a car of similar type has been used in a crime somewhere. Vehicle deaths account for many more deaths each year than do firearm deaths, accident or otherwise. Yet for some reason anyone is allowed to POSSESS one. This doesnt mean they are allowed to the privilage of driving it on government provided roads (they are allowed to operate on private property, without concern for age, ability, etc). Guns have been deamonized for some reason, and those that are not able to look at the argument subjectivly (without emotion, or agenda) start making conjecture, assumptions, and look at the capabilitys of such items. They do not look at the actual use, reason for ownership, etc. If I said that anyone that owns a gun is a murderer (seriously) you would probably get all bent out of shape, because you dont want your gun ownership affected.

Any firearm, regardless of type, length, semi-auto-bolt-single shot-lever action, etc is dangerous. You had to pass a backgound check to obtain your SIG, would you likely use that weapon is a premeditated crime? I do not think so, as it would be traced back to you in a heartbeat. Would you be more apt to (if you were planning a crime) obtain an unregistered, untraceable weapon for use 1 time, then dispose of it. This would be the smart method, IMHO. And you didnt have to do anything but wait a few days, and wait 10 min for the dealer to call the FBI and check you out. Think about this, if you had to fork over $10,000 for a weapon that you wanted, have to be fingerprinted, photographed, and subject yourself to search, and wait 8 months or more to get it, would you use that in a crime, when you can get 10 or more of same, not be fingerprinted, picture taken, consent to search, wait 8 months for the same price?

When any of our gun rights is affected, all gun owners are affected. Just because your particular weapon is not, does not mean that your rights have not been diminished. As a responsable gun owner, you should realize that law abiding citizens should not have to pay for the evil of criminals.
 
Sig-Fan:

A couple of quick points, for it's growing late.

1. Re the conversion kits you mentioned, they are mostly JUNK and they do not work as claimed. Additionally, the conversion of any semi-automatic firearm to full automatic, without registration of the conversion, if a federal felony. A felony is a serious crime, this one punisable by 5 years in prison plus heavy fines.

2. More guns are owned by "civilians", that is private citizens in the U.S. than ever before, and the rate of accidental shootings, forget about what the screamers on television claim, is lower than ever before. This business of licensing and requirements for "training" is bunk, with "training" to easily becoming a license to steal, the trainors stealing from the trainees. As for licensing, in Germany, you need a license, government issued, in order to drive a car, just like here in the U.S. There are still auto carshes in both countries.

3. In the U.S. a single felony conviction serves to permanently eliminate the individuals right to own or use firearms of any kind. As to the "Loony" that you are concerned about, who is to tell who is "loony" as opposed to who isn't? They cannot do that here, can tbey do it in Germany? Unfortunately, our law makers find it easier to attack the law abiding citizenry with idiotic gun control laws, than to make proper criminal law. Proper criminal law would specify the death penalty upon conviction for criminal use of a firearm. Self defense or other justifiable shooting would not be criminal use.

4. As to my going along with the idea of needing government permission in order to own automatic weapon(s), I do not know how you managed, but you have completely misunderstood my position and thinking. By the way, this entire discussion arose out of a question concerning the "sunset" of a particularly dumb federal law, that being the "Assault Weapons Ban", which never in it's 10 year life "banned" a single assault weapon. Look up the meaning of the German word Sturmgewere, an then look at what our legislative idiocy said.

It seems that we have reached that point where we begin to repeat ourselves, so I will close here with best wishes for the holiday season to you and yours.
 
PMDW:

I had previously apoligized for my butchery, re the spelling of German words and place names. Apologies still appropriate, it seems, or might it be that my spell check program has problems too?

Thought that it was 5 years in the slammer, is it really 10? Either one is more than I would care to spend.
 
hi allan and hk,

@hk 300k hunters in germany. hunting in germany is quite different, here you can't just go out and hunt something, but you have first to pass a qualification that takes about one or two years and costs about 2k euros. after that, you are allowed to get somewhere a piece of forrest were you are responsible for. as hunter in germany you are responsible the whole part of the year for your part of the forrest, every weekend you have to check out if the forrest is fine, if the animals are not sick, count how many animals are on your area...

you said 79% of the gun crimes are commited with illegal guns. therefore are 21% commited with legal guns.
last year 98,7% were commited with illegal guns. therefore just .13% of the gun crimes were commited with legal guns...
that makes a difference of about 20% between germany and US...now figure out how many crimes could have been prevented considering that many of this incidents happen by people going mad (wife cheated on him), while carring a gun....

@abelew
i certainly dont have a problem with assaultrifles, since alan explained me about the high barriers in order to get them. i just think, that it would be good thing, if you had some barriers about obtaining (is this the right word?) regular semis...

@alan, before you start ingnoring this thread, please answer me, why these conversion kits are sold, if you commit a crime by installing it? noone would buy one of these things just to look at the gun parts.

i agree, thats enough words for this single toppic... :D
 
ahhh, sorry i forgot.

my idea of loony is someone, whose psychologist said that he is one. but seriously...loonies are people who tried to kill themselves, who have to different personalities (just like in fight club), people with paranoia...oh sorry, according to michael moore the majority of the us citizens have paranoia ;)

@abelew

"Just because YOU do not think its right, or needed, or whatever does not mean YOU have the RIGHT to say its wrong, etc for the next person."

yea of course, i think thats what you would call the right to say your opinion.i have also the right to say, that i want everyone to protect the ozone layer, even if some people would be affected.
do u have the right to say "i want everyone driving a car near me having a driving license." i'd say: " hack yea, dude, of course you have the right to, even if driving without license works quite well for others, you still have the right to complain!!!"

thanks to you all guys, i improved my english during the few last days by writing lots of posts and by exchanging opinions... :)
 
i improved my english during the few last days by writing lots of posts and by exchanging opinions...
I'm still working on improving my English. :)

However, you missed one question. If gun laws work, and England has a 100% ban on civilian owned firearms, how come they have this problem with gun related crime? They have no gun stores, no guns shows and you can't break into someone's house and steal one because they aren't suppose to be there in the first place. The country is an island, so you can't just drive across the border and smuggle one back in the trunk of your car.

Based on the logic of gun bans, as the police arrest criminals and confiscate guns, the overall number of guns should decrease along with a decrease in the number of crimes committed with guns. But the result seems to be that by removing guns from those that do obey laws and who handed over their guns to the government is to make them an easier and safer target for those that by definition do not obey laws, criminals.
 
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