"Assault weapons" and school attacks

I could tell you that murderers share an insufficient regard for the lives of others at the time of their defining act, but I can't think of how I would harness that observation to make predictions.

Let's say that those on here are right and psychiatric drugs over-prescribed, excessively accessible and violent video games as well as hollywood movies all play a part.

Firstly would it not help in identifying certain individuals as being at risk?
Would it not help to have other areas of focus in trying to curtail this violence other than simply banning guns but leaving the underlying pathology untouched?

If you can't see the potential in that....
 
PJP said:
Let's say that those on here are right and psychiatric drugs over-prescribed, excessively accessible and violent video games as well as hollywood movies all play a part.

Firstly would it not help in identifying certain individuals as being at risk?

That depends. If 10 million lads are on psychotropics, play violent video games and watch violent films, and 7 million of them commit violent crimes, you've really got something.

If only 2,000 of them commit a violent crime, then those characterisitcs don't have a high predictive value.

Would it not help to have other areas of focus in trying to curtail this violence other than simply banning guns but leaving the underlying pathology untouched?

Again, that depends on people drawing the right lessons from the observations. I saw indians killed by the boatload on TV as a lad, and I saw Moe hit Curl on the head with a crowbar dozens of times. I had toy guns.

People in the states younger than me were often prohibited by their mothers from playing with toy guns or viewing violent images. I think they drew some poor lessons.

For serious crime, I imagine a very serious impediment to understanding what causes violent crime is a lack of candor amongst the perpetrators. I'm not suggesting that then topic hasn't been studied extensively (in fact I think it has been), but the results may be either solid and not readily useful, or inconclusive.

I'm no expert on this. I just don't see students passing up interesting theses like this.
 
The same arguments that blame __________ without causational evidence can likely be applied to firearm ownership and possession. EVERY mass shooter has been in possession of a firearm simply by definition.
 
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adamBomb said:
Yes but I don't think anyone on these boards would try to compare a rifle to a pistol. We all know the differences and advantages/disadvantages of each. Overall a rifle is a much more powerful, has a higher capacity, and can shoot much farther and accurately. The vegas killer could of never used a pistol to do what he did.
So what?

This thread is about school shootings. I pointed out that only two of the ten most recent school shootings involved so-called "assault weapons," and someone else pointed out that those two events had the highest casualty counts. Both statements are correct, so much depends on what point you're trying to make. The Virginia Tech incident wasn't on my list because I chose to exclude colleges and universities. Not that the lives of college-age students aren't valuable, but because the anti-gun side loves it when "children" are massacred, because they get much more emotional mileage out of such incidents.

The shooter in the Sandy Hook or Parkland incident could as easily have used a handgun or handguns and racked up a similar toll. If they had used handguns, perhaps there would have been more victims who survived their wounds, but we'll never know. Why do some incidents result in dozens of casualties while others result in two or three? Statistics alone cannot possibly answer that. For that we have to delve into specific motives. In the Sandy Hook and Parkland incidents, the motive was to kill as many kids as possible. In some of the other incidents, the motive seems to have been more invididual revenge against one or a few targetted victims. That's still a school shooting, but it's a different dynamic.

My point was simply that banning AR-15s is not the magic talisman that will absolutely guarantee that all our schools will forever be 100% safe and secure against shootings.

And let's never forget that Columbine was intended specifically to exceed the death toll of the Oklahoma City bombing. The primary weapons at Columbine were bombs, not guns. Mercifully, the shooters were lousy bomb makers. Had all their bombs detonated, the death toll would have been in the multiple hundreds.
 
Pond said:
Why isn't there being carried out some serious, comprehensive research into the drivers behind school shootings?
Because the powers that be really REALLY don't want that question to be answered. It's a can of worms they don't want dug up and opened.

Pond said:
That they typically involve shooting as multiple unarmed targets, rather than a single person.
Not really correct. Many recent school shootings were targeted rather than random, mass shootings.

Pond said:
That often the perpetrators commit suicide.
Often they don't.

Isolate the two that involved "assault weapons" and that produced the largest kill counts, and you have Sandy Hook and Parkland. The Sandy Hook shooter killed himself. The Parkland shooter walked out and went to McDonalds.
 
Aguila Blanca wrote:
I pointed out that only two of the ten most recent school shootings involved so-called "assault weapons," and someone else pointed out that those two events had the highest casualty counts.

Not entirely accurate. Of the two incidents with "assault weapons" on your list, Buzzcook overlooked Freeman H.S. which had 3 casualties, one of which was a fatality. While the Parkland shooting had the most casualties by far, the next highest casualty count was actually Marshall County (no "assault weapon") with 2 killed and 18 injured.

While two data points do not an analysis make, it goes to the point that shooter intent is likely a more significant factor in casualty count than what firearm was used.
 
If banning certain guns infringes on our right to keep and bear arms then so does the ban on nuclear bombs, anthrax, etc.
1st, I'm guessing if a person is fanatical enough to wish full scale destruction of innocents, has the technology to build a nuclear bomb, the $ to build it and the means to explode it, no law would stop him. 2nd, guessing that if someone was to build a nuclear bomb their intention would be very high they intended to use it to commit mass killings. That is not the case with citizens who purchase a AR. It must be less than .01% who buy AR's are intending to mass murder innocent civilians. On the plus side, congress will not pass banning AR's.
 
Why isn't there being carried out some serious, comprehensive research into the drivers behind school shootings?

well, there is this...
Because the powers that be really REALLY don't want that question to be answered. It's a can of worms they don't want dug up and opened.

Another point is, that who does the research, and how can we trust them to be honest about the research AND their conclusions???

Our CDC (Center for Disease Control) decided quite a few years ago that "gun deaths" were a not only a public health issue, but were a disease....they did "research" and advocated strongly for gun control. To the point were it took a law being passed, forbidding them to use tax money to advocate for gun control. They could still use the money for research, but NOT for advocating gun control.

The CDC stopped doing research on the issue....

The real problem with any kind of study of these shooting is that there is simply no way to know, for certain, just what is going on inside the minds of the killers. We get no answers from the dead, and those in custody can (and I expect, do) lie.

Each and everyone of them is an individual, and what ever their personal trigger was, it is different from everyone else.

That fact should be blatantly obvious, no matter what factor you look at as a possible cause, you will find literally millions of other people with the same factors in their lives, who do NOT become spree killers, in or out of schools.

What if some study proclaims a "fascination" with guns is the cause (or one of the causes), something most of us here would dismiss, as money down the drain, but what about those who don't? 16 (or 60) million Facebook/twitter lemmings screaming how anyone who is in any way interested in guns is mentally unstable, can have an effect. Democracy (even in a republic) is about numbers more than it is about right and wrong.

You can do a study that "proves" that 99% of these killers ate bread, or a bread product within 30 days of committing the killings. So, based on that, we should ban bread, and bread products!!!
(intentional sarcasm)

My point is that you can study the snot out of the subject, and while you will find a lot of information, and some points of congruity between some of the killers, there are others that are completely outside the profile.

And what can one do with the information, anyway??? With certain exceptions, we cannot (yet) legally imprison or detain adults for crimes that have not yet committed. We cannot force people into treatment, without following due process of law, either.

It doesn't matter if the police get called to the house 29 time, (or 49) until/unless the individual actually does something that violates a law, there is nothing that can be legally done.

This is not a question of someone who is dangerous seeming, it is a question of whether or not that person is actually dangerous, under the standards of current law. And that, my friends is why you cannot reliably stop these killers beforehand. Because they aren't killers until they start shooting, and they can be "normal" enough when evaluated, and turn killer the very next day.

Several of the mass killers in recent years were evaluated, by police (health & wellness check), and by mental health professionals, and found to be no threat. Until, some time later, when they went on a killing spree...

One can argue, that, in order for us to be "safer", that the legal standards that allow us to take action should be lower. There is some merit to this, but there are also HUGE risks.

Risks to liberty, and risks to just being able to live a "normal" life, unless you live by someone else's standard of "normal".

The most difficult argument to prove is proving a negative. When the authorities show up at your door, and because they got a tip, demand you prove you aren't a dangerous wack job, spree killer in waiting, how does one respond? What proof is there that I don't, secretly in my mind desire to kill dozens of children???

There is none. There can BE none. IF we lower the legal standards too much, we risk becoming a society where people are at risk simply because someone anonymously accuses them.

We already see the potential, in divorce cases, where one party falsely accuses the other in order to gain an advantage. When that ex-spouse, ex-girlfriend, or just the guy who's parking spot you took last week can call the cops and get you hauled in for "evaluation" (while they take your guns, as a precaution...) is THAT the kind of society you want? And, especially if we get that kind of society and STILL aren't safe??

Not I.
 
Hello people. Sure it's been a while, but I have been around. I would not use these aforementioned shootings as ammunition against gun control "assault weapons" or no. They might just try and ban all semi autos period. Also, the thing is, before there were no perpetrators captured alive they all committed suicide before they could be arrested. There have now been a few, three i think taken alive but their motives were never brought to light only buried beneath BAN ASSAULT RIFLES wall to wall all day every day for months after the fact. when a murder takes place, the motive is the most useful thing to know for both solving the crime at hand and preventing future ones. Sure they may all be different, but that Knowledge is valuable nonetheless. I second the question as to why it hasn't been made public and also believe it's being swept under the rug for some unknown reason.
 
Another point is, that who does the research, and how can we trust them to be honest about the research AND their conclusions???
Totally agree. Research shows the violent music, violent movies, violent video games, ect, have no effect on our children, BUT the N.R.A needs to be banned because it has too much influence on our politicians. And they want to be taken serious?
 
Some research has been done. But no one wants to talk about it: It's an indictment of our society.

What do Adam Lanza, Nikolas Cruz and the vast majority of mass shooters have in common? They grew up without fathers. After his parents divorce Adam Lanza fell apart. Nikolas Cruz was adopted as a baby. Cruz's adopted father died when he was very young. The police were called to his home dozens of times.

Dr. Warren Farrell, author of the new book The Boy Crisis, explains:
Minimal or no father involvement, whether due to divorce, death, or imprisonment, is common to Adam Lanza, Elliott Rodgers, Dylan Roof and Stephen Paddock.

https://www.sott.net/article/378017-Fatherlessness-The-real-reason-for-school-shootings

It's much easier to simply blame guns, the, NRA and law abiding gun owners.
 
They grew up without fathers.
That may be a contributing factor, but it's far from universal. The Columbine kids had nuclear families, as did a couple of other shooters.

The problem is multifaceted and incredibly complex, and it can't be boiled down to one or two universal causes.
 
That may be a contributing factor, but it's far from universal. The Columbine kids had nuclear families, as did a couple of other shooters.


A few shooters out of how many school shooting incidents?

As Terry Brennan, co-founder of Leading Women for Shared Parenting, notes:
72 percent of adolescent murderers grew up without fathers; the same for 60 percent of all rapists.

70 percent of juveniles in state institutions grew up in single- or no-parent situations

The number of single-parent households is a good predictor of violent crime in a community, while poverty rate is not.
 
Research shows the violent music, violent movies, violent video games, ect, have no effect on our children, BUT the N.R.A needs to be banned because it has too much influence on our politicians.

That is not true. Realistic violent video games are associated both correlatively with higher incidents of country violence and to some degree causally with higher levels of aggressive feelings (mostly transient but absolutely measurable). The majority of the work that is not funded by game makers shows this.
Studies that claim otherwise say use Japan and S. Korea or European game purchase and say they are just as violent, but the games they are talking about are more abstract non realistic (halo v COD) or in the case of Asia, tentacle monsters being killed counting the same as ultra realistic first person stabber or shooter games.

don't get me wrong, 999,999 out of a million of kids don't go out and kill anyone as a result of some kind of elevated affect.

In terms of film, causal links are difficult, but American children are at in fact exposed to more murder on film than Asian or Europeans kids are and American minors do commit more murder. The US tends to give much stronger weight to a nipple in pushing to an R rating analogue, and other countries tending to ignore the nipple and taking films closer to R analogue due to realistic violence. Mocked as he was for it Trump I think was right in saying we need to consider and research a rating system that looks at realistic violence as more of a factor in what a ten year old sees , and worry less about a human nipple

Realistic violent gaming has a laboratory measurable affect on aggression, and Us kids across age cohorts are exposed to more media depiction of murder and realistic violence:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/138/2/e20161298


Parkland ... Assault weapon=Yes 17 killed 14 wounded
Sal Castro Middle School ... Assault weapon=No 2 wounded, apparent AD
http://abc7.com/charges-filed-agains...oting/3023846/
Marshall County H.S. ... Assault weapon=No 2 killied 18 injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsha...chool_shooting
Italy H.S. ... Assault weapon=No One person wounded
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...ooting-n840301
Aztec H.S. ... Assault weapon=No 2 killed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_...chool_shooting
Mattoon H.S. ... Assault weapon=No 2 injured. stopped by unarmed female teacher. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...921-story.html
Freeman H.S. ... Assault weapon=Yes 1 killed 3 wounded
http://www.king5.com/article/news/lo.../293-474436713
Lithia Springs H.S. ... Assault weapon=No suicide no others threatened.
https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-ne...V36oIKlTRuVZO/
North Park Elementary School ... Assault weapon=No murder suicide 1 accidental victim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_...chool_shooting
Marysville Pilchuck H.S. ... Assault weapon=No 4 killed 1 wounded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marysv...chool_shooting

Food for thought ...

17 dead at Parkland 11 killed in previous ten shootings. So school shootings happen with various types of firearms. School shootings using semi-auto rifles with high capacity magazines tend to have a high rate of fatality.

Not as high as pistols, nor as high as rifles that are not assault rifles.

Brievik killed 69 students and staff with a non assault rifle. The rifle is still legal in Norway, legal in Canada, legal in NYC and legal in DC -- higher fatality rate than any of those on the list or ANY mass shooting of students in the US

As someone mentioned Cho is also higher than any on that list, higher than newton, than columbine etc, and that was handgun

Where capability and capacity of a wepon matter most is for the DEFENDER, not the perp. The perp has the chance to plan out his killing, he has element of both surprise, planning and shock on hi side. he/she will have his reloads and probably thought about it and practiced it.

it is not like the infantry where the side initiating the fight and attacking a defended position has disadvantage. these are soft target, surprised defenders, and they are at an inherent disadvantage. Any modern firearm can cause a lot of casualties. That is the point if they ban assault rifles to prevent them, are we really saying we wont see just also large killings with handguns or regular rifles when Cho, already did it at Va Tech and Breivik did it at Utoya (incidentally both killing a lot of military age male students who should be harder to kill than grade schoolers)??

We are not theorizing handguns or rifles that are not assault rifles are as good or better for killing students, the events show it for a fact. For one thing as Cho showed handgun allows a shooter to pocket the gun and move from one open area to another without people knowing they are armed.

The fact remains that the defender needs the higher capability firearm. The attacker has surprise, planning advantages , and picks where and when they will attack.
 
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Our CDC (Center for Disease Control) decided quite a few years ago that "gun deaths" were a not only a public health issue, but were a disease....they did "research" and advocated strongly for gun control. To the point were it took a law being passed, forbidding them to use tax money to advocate for gun control. They could still use the money for research, but NOT for advocating gun control.
Oh they have moved on from public health to population health which is a stalking horse to really attacking firearms ownership.

More to the point can you imagine what the ACLU would have to say if the CDC were to start studying the effect of having a person with an arrest history domiciled in a home and affect on "health" defined as violence injury rates? or better yet the "effect" of the Fourth and Fifth amendments on injury rates?

or shorter vs longer sentences? Given that most violent crime, ie injury ie "disease' is committed by prior offenders, shorter time served causes more public health damage.

Can you image the reaction?

This is the problem with looking at criminal violence from an epidemiology analytical framing -- where the agency is always a non human or human action, but is a thing, like a pathogen, a motorcycle helmet or a gun. It WILL find guns "cause" injury/disease.
Guns are the instrumentality in a certain number of deaths or injury, remove guns remove all of those deaths or injury. Just like smokers, though self preciptationed risk and ACTS are what cause lung cancer, but in CDC terms it is always cigarettes that do.
Standard epidemiology has no choice but to come to such findings -- even though they are ultimately specious.

This is all quite simple, the CDC never once, in al its studies of risk of gun ownership, and it subsidized several, not once, parsed normal gun owners like you and I, from people who belong to gangs, run meth labs, fence goods out of their apartment, or are engaged in obvious primary risk criminal lifestyles. Simply one single group, be they person with a dozen arrests or persons with no criminal activity ever, one risk group: "gun owners."
 
The Norway mass murderer used a Ruger Mini-14 and a Glock.

This article states that Norway will ban "assault weapons" effective in 2021:

The ban, which would enter into force in 2021, comes amid renewed debate on semi-automatic weapons in the United States, following a school shooting in Florida that claimed the lives of 17 students and teachers on February 14.

The massacre in Norway took place on July 22, 2011, when disguised as a police officer and armed with a Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle and a Glock pistol, Breivik killed 69 people, most of them teenagers who were attending a Labour Party youth camp.
 
Some year ago Israel had a problem with their enemies raiding schools. It doesn't happen now and stopped quite suddenly when used a new tactic. If you want to know how they did it. Ask them.
 
TDL said:
That is not true. Realistic violent video games are associated both correlatively with higher incidents of country violence and to some degree causally with higher levels of aggressive feelings (mostly transient but absolutely measurable). The majority of the work that is not funded by game makers shows this.
***
Realistic violent gaming has a laboratory measurable affect on aggression, and Us kids across age cohorts are exposed to more media depiction of murder and realistic violence:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...38/2/e20161298

If this is too far afield, maybe we can address it another day. What is the correlation between aggression and playing contact sports. Or driving in heavy traffic each day?

If learning aggression is a necessary element in male social competence across a range of activities, isn't it an error to link it to violent crime?
 
zukiphile said:
If learning aggression is a necessary element in male social competence across a range of activities, isn't it an error to link it to violent crime?
That starts with a huge "IF." Why would learning aggression be a necessary element of male competence? If that's what's being taught to American males (or western males, or males in general), perhaps that's part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
That starts with a huge "IF." Why would learning aggression be a necessary element of male competence? If that's what's being taught to American males (or western males, or males in general), perhaps that's part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Because it sits at the other end of the continuum from agreeableness. A highly agreeable person can't compete well in a contact sport or navigate heavy traffic well because he will prioritize others. A pathologically aggressive person will be a problem, but it takes some level of aggression (even at an abstract level) to have an argument with someone.

Learning to engage in analysis, decide that someone else's interests may suffer for that decision, then execute the decision requires some level of aggression. A fellow with no aggressive traits will be a useless omega member of his group.
 
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