Asked this in reloading but nothing

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grubbylabs

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Well a couple of questions really.

1st when I do the final crimp they look good but when they sit for a while they start to open up a little. What causes this?

Second I just loaded up some 3" shells for duck season and again they seemed to crimp ok but this time I took my soldering Iron and melted the center with kind of a swirl type motion. Do you all think this will help, hurt, or do nothing at all?
 
If you're are new to shot shell reloading, please know that getting good crimps is probably the last thing you'll master -- you're not alone.

Can you be a little more specific: Star or roll crimp? Skived or un-skived hulls? Paper or plastic hulls? New or pre-crimped hills? Compressed or expanded wad?

These days most wads are plastic and have some sort of a "shock absorber" element between the wad and cup. The elements come in various proprietary configurations: Figure 8s, zig-zag struts, spirals, etc. Often you can get an otherwise great looking crimp; but, the shock element is in significant compression. Over time, as it tries to elongate, to regain its original dimension, it forces the crimp to open a little. This is usually caused by a selection of components that result in a too tall total component column. Or, trying to have too much hull return above the crimp.

The first problem can be solved by selecting components that give you a shorter total component column. Using a denser powder or different wad may do this.

For too much return, a solution might be found experimenting with the adjustments of your loader's pre-crimp and crimping dies.

There's a another problem that is typically seen only in small bore smooth hulls: As you set the wad, compressed air is trapped between the wad and powder. As the air expands the wad elevates. Typically this just causes a big mess of spilled shot; but, the process is sometimes delayed and will open an otherwise good looking crimp. I've only had this happen with Double-A .410-bore hulls. The solution to this problem is to double stroke the wad setting operation. This has to be done VERY cautiously with progressive/auto indexing loaders.
 
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They are plastic hulls with with a star crimp. My steel loads have a ranger wad, just a shot cup and a dome shape on the bottom for powder. My target loads use a Winchester AA wad so it has some compression to it.


I am using new un skived plastic Fiocchi hulls with a star crimp. But even my once fired ones for my target loads open up some.

My crimp is dished a little(kinda like a cast Iron fry pan) but it is usually flat across the top. I will try some pics in the AM if that helps.
 
What hulls, wads, powder and amount, payload?
What type of loader?

Initially, it sounds like one of two things - either you have the wrong powder and wad for the hull you are using, or the hulls are old enough and have been used enough, their crimps have relaxed
 
1 1/8 ounce steel shot for the new steel loads with a ranger wad. Aliant Steel powder 38 grains 3" Fioocchi hull new unskived 5/8 Tyvek over shot card.

1 1/8 ounce lead shot for my target loads with a win AA wad WSF don't remember right of the top of my head how much.
2 3/4 Fioocchi hull new unskived. I have loaded some of these hulls at least twice and they still like to open as well.


Mec Jr. loader.
 
1-oz, my friend, the OP mentioned new Fiocchi hulls, ranger wads and steel shot. I think he's using one those HITS component kits by BPI. In a previous thread he mentioned Alliant's STEEL powder, also. I don't lead steel; but, I thought those kits came with overshot wads and were intended for roll crimps.

EDIT: seems I'm not as quick with the clicker as the OP -- he just confirmed what I said an instant before I said it.
 
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secret is in the hull

When I first started reloading shotgun shells, 35 years since, hulls was hulls. I used a MEC 600jr. After awhile I found most hulls were only fit as roughage for cattle. It is important to only load from the recipe which is hull specific. Winchester double A was the easiest hull to load, making them well worth the extra cost. I get an average of 8 loads from AA and could go more if I was less picky. Remington RXP are also nice but more scarce than AA.
 
I think Zippy had it right .....its usually caused by an internal height problem - a combination of the amount of powder and the wad being a little more than the case will hold with a crimp - so they open up a little. This will happen even on a published recipe sometimes.

Changing wads is probably your easiest solution ( but stay with published recipes ) don't go out on your own and be a chemist.... Make sure you're using an equivalent wad for your intended load .... and look at 3 or 4 brands - and see if one or two of the brands are a little shorter - and that's probably your easiest solution. Like OneOunce or Zippy said - your 2nd choice is to go to a denser powder vs whatever you're using now.

I would not weld the crimp shut on those 3" shells either. Rolling a crimp too deep / or welding it shut will significantly increase pressures ...and while I doubt its dangerous / it may cause a number of issues that could affect a poor pattern.

( you're trying to stuff .. 2 ounces of stuff in a 1 1/2 ounce bag ....) ...
 
I thought if yo just jumped up and down on the bag long enough it would probably fit?

I am getting ready to get some pics to load up so you all can see what I have.


Sorry camera battery is dead, will have to let it charge for a few. Yes it is a HITS stell package kit from BPI.

I will post the other load when I load the pics up.
 
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Back in the late 1960s, my experience was the same as birdshot's: Double-As worked best for reloading in my MEC 650. If you were a reloader, then you'd probably be shooting new AAs in matches to get the hulls for your practice reloads. It's still the same with some shooters, yet the AAs have changed.

Back in the day, with the advent of the one piece plastic wad (with shock column and integral shot cup) trap and Skeet scores soared. Yet, some folks were still loading with card and fiber punch-cut wads for their field loads.
 
Like Zippy says .....AA's have changed ...

most everyone I know reloading 12ga - sticks almost exclusively with Remington STS or Remington Nitro hulls. They are a lot more durable than the current version of the AA's ....and way better than the other options ...Fiocchi, etc ...

I had the same problem on weak crimps opening up on "hot" target shells - using Rem STS - I was trying to load some 1oz loads at 1290 fps ...using 19.8gr of Hodgdon Clays ...and a Green Duster wad or a Win WAA12SL wad ...and it just would not stay crimped.... I switched the wad to a Rem TGT 12 and they fit fine ... ( both recipes are published in Hodgdon's books ) ...

My normal load in 1oz shells is at about 1225 fps / using Hodgdon Clays at around 18.3gr and Green Duster wads - and that load crimps just fine.
 
So here are the pics: The purple is the hits steel package.

The steel load: Fioochi plastic case
38 grains of Aliant steel powder, one ranger plus wad one Tyvek over shot card. The only thing they say about crimping is make sure you have a good one.


The orange is from the Lyman shot shell reloading handbook, 4th edition.

The load: Fiocchi Plastic Cases Low Plastic Basewad, Fold crimp.

WSF 30.0 (I actually load 29.5 since that is what the closest bushing gets) Primer: win 209 Wad: One Win WAA12
 
Not sure why the pics did not show up, oh it said they failed.
 

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Ok, I still think its an internal column height issue ....the crimps look about right on depth around the collar of the shell...

You'll just have to find another wad ....or another powder to fix it, I think.

By the way on a bushing ....they're easy to adjust.. Spin them on a lathe or a drill press ( I use a wood lathe and a chuck to clamp them up and spin them )...and touch the inside with a little emery cloth -- not too aggressively, and it'll open them up a little. If you need to tighten them up ( you can add a little clear finger nail polish - let it harden and smooth it out --- I don't wear the finger nail polish / I borrow it ..:D)...

I just re-mark the bushing using a Dremel / or a permanent marker ....and bushings are cheap so pick up a few extras...( gun shows or on-line thru MEC and others ).
 
Can you tell how much I "welded" the crimp, I know the picks kinda suck but. Do you think that will effect the load performance very much?
 
No, they're too blurry for me to see them clearly ....

but I'd cut them open and reclaim the components ( at least the shot and powder ) ....and try again when you get this column height issue figured out.
( a pipe cutter works / or an exacto knife - if you're careful ..) ...
 
For Target loads ....many of us, even in 12ga, are using 1 oz or even 7/8oz of shot these days ....way less recoil and cheaper to load.

My primary shell for sporting clays, Skeet and Trap from 16-20 yd line is 1 oz of 8's at around 1225 fps. My buddy OneOunce is experimenting with 3/4 oz loads too lately ...( uses a Cheerio or some nonsense to take up the space ...) but he can explain that when he drops by again ...
Everything I reload in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and .410 are 2 3/4" shells and lead shot ...

I don't have much experience with steel shot / or the components you're trying to load for "ducks" ...so I don't know what kind of options you have there. I'm assuming you're using a published recipe ...but there are recipes all over the internet these days ....or talk to your buddies and see what they're loading for waterfowl.

But if you don't have it / get a 1 oz charge bar for your MEC --- and drop those target loads down ( you'll need to change the wad too probably ) .. but the crimp I see on the Fiocchi shell on the left looks way too shallow to me ( confirming to me, its an internal component height problem ).
 
From what I can see in your pics, your loads share a too tall a component column. Before you start to crimp, is shot above the top of the wad's petals? You may be dropping too much shot.

Another possibility is that you're not fully seating the wad over the powder. With a non-progressive press, like your MEC Jr. it's unlikely with a properly adjusted wad ram. Yet, wad rams have been known to be incorrectly set and wad ramp clamp set screws have been known to loosen.

Do you have the wad ram adjusted to show just a pinch of pressure when it hits the powder? In the old days, with punch-cut wads, wad pressure was important; however, with one piece plastic wads all you need is good contact. If you've been changing wads without adjusting the wad ram, you could be setting the wads too high. The high wads have the same result as a too tall wad column. With the wad ram down, check to make sure you see the gauge move a pinch and at the same time you should feel the spring pressure in the handle. If you're not into the spring, then the wads are probably too high.
 
I am using new un-skived plastic Fiocchi hulls with a star crimp. But even my once fired ones for my target loads open up some.
Click to expand...

That right there is one reason why your crimps are not staying closed. Star crimped plastic shells are always skived on the inside edge of the mouth. This gives the crimp room to settle in. BPI offers new plastic shells skived and unskived for those that want to roll crimp. The unskived roll better and are firmer for more resistance at ignition.

Another problem is, get rid of that tyvek over shot wad. It takes up room, so getting rid of it will solve part of the problem. It is the brain fart of the curmudgeon, at BP. He says it flattens out the crimp, making it look good. Not needed IMHO.

Next, you need to adjust the centerpunch on the final crimp station DOWN a bit. More dish to the crimp. That too will lock the crimp better.

For lead target loads, I ALWAYS put around 50 pounds of wad pressure on the wad. Yeah, I know there's those that will tell you "plastic wads don't require wad pressure". No, BUT the wad MUST be in firm contact with the powder! Just pushing the wad in there, then dumping the shot in doesn't seat the wad. Then crimping tries to push the wad down. It'll sometimes refuse to slide, popping the crimp open after a while.

Edit; Rats! Zippy beat me to it, gotta type faster!
 
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