Aguila Blanca
Staff
And how is performing steps 2 and 3 without performing step 1 less likely to cause a negligent discharge with an M-9 than with an M1911A1?Gary L. Griffiths said:
Gary L. Griffiths said:
Arming our Service Members
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
But ... but ... but ...DNS said:
I thought when we eliminated the draft and converted to an all-volunteer military we were supposed to be getting better and brighter troops.
Some of the draftees I served with in Vietnam were a whole bunch better than some of the enlistees. Even back then, we had people who were ordered to enlist by a judge; their other option was prison. Total wastes, most of them, but their service numbers began with "RA" (draftees' service numbers began with "US").
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I live near WPAFB, a huge research center for the Air Force. There are tons of NCOs and officers I interact with some regularity. The vast majority have almost no firearms training and no interest in firearms. Requiring them to carry firearms would be a big mistake. Forcing engineers and scientists to do more small arms training would be a waste of money. I would be surprised if many of them know the location of an arms room.
Right after 9/11, in a private discussion with a senior officer he told me he had been ordered to carry a sidearm. He indicated he had not fired a weapon since leaving the academy decades earlier and was relieved when he studied the details of the order. There was no stated requirement he carry ammunition. He just carried an empty gun with no ammunition on his person. I think he was assigned an escort/driver shortly thereafter and the requirement was lifted.
Before anyone from the Airforce jumps on me, I have also shot with some current, retired, and civillian base personnel in a CMP club and pistol league. There are definitely a number that can shoot extremely well. Better than myself for sure. It isn't all the JOs and NCOs though.
I think side arms on base would not cause any problem there. Around me people are used to seeing MPs with rifles and more often then not an MG of some sort off to the side at every gate.
Employer of last resort to many who enlist.
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Gary L. Griffiths
New member
The key was, that the approved carry mode for the M-9 and M-11 is fully loaded, with a round in the chamber and the hammer dropped with the decocker. You KNOW the gun is fully loaded rather than ASSUMING that if you remove the magazine it is unloaded. If you rack the slide, the unfired round will pop out to remind you.
At the point I retired, in '91, Gawd help you if you failed a PT test, but if you couldn't qualify with your issue weapon, nobody really cared. I was less than totally popular with the brass by observing that if it all goes into the pot, I'd a lot rather be in a foxhole with somebody who knows how to shoot, than knows how to run!
Your first statement is spot-on! I served a tour as an instructor at the Criminal Investigations Group at the MP School in Ft. McClellan. After I retired, I spent almost 20 years training law enforcement officers in judgmental use-of-force and gunfighting tactics. My experience confirms the old truism: "You can lead a student to knowledge, but you cannot make him think." Besides, the military has little time for such unimportant things as weapon training and practice. It is much more important to hold training sessions on acceptance of gay, lesbian, and transgender troops, and to conduct sexual harassment and microagression sensitivity training.
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
Exactly! What led to my almost getting shot was, the magazine wasn't supposed to be inserted into the weapon unless necessary. The off-going MP had inserted the magazine in violation of SOP. My team-mate (partner is too strong a word) came into the guard shack, buckled on the pistol belt, racked the slide without checking it, and pulled the trigger. Two feet in front of me. The bullet shattered on the tile floor, and I took the gun away from him, cleared it, and was sitting picking pieces of bullet jacket out of my boot soles when the duty officer came running out.
I argued that we should be authorized to carry our weapons loaded so that everyone would treat them like loaded weapons, but to no avail. Shortly afterwards they took away the pistols and issued clubs.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Too true.johnwilliamson062 said:
As a Vietnam veteran living mostly on social (in)security, I use the nearby VA hospital for most healthcare issues. Being in there is like being in a third world country. Very few of the younger (meaning under 60) veterans being treated speak English -- I feel like I walked through a star gate and transported myself to Guatamala or Ecuador.
Double Naught Spy
New member
It isn't just employment of last resort, but employment to learn new skills for nefarious groups and individuals.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/fbi-finds-gangs-expanding-even-to-u-s-military/
http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-gang-assessment-us-military-2011-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-gang-members-using-military-training/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/fbi-finds-gangs-expanding-even-to-u-s-military/
http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-gang-assessment-us-military-2011-10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_presence_in_the_United_States_military
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-gang-members-using-military-training/
That was the hype. And if you believed that, I have some land on the coast of Kentucky you might be interested in. Also some bridges.
I was there, then, and yes, we did get some "better and brighter troops". We also got a LOT of people who's skills and intelligence consisted of not flunking the basic physical.
By the numbers, the majority of our service personnel are not people who know and understand personal firearms. Being in the service does not change this.
I'd be ok with regs that do not FORBID a personal CCW. The people who would seek one are generally not a problem. HOWEVER, barracks/shipboard/ tent city living raises an issue. And the only answer possible would be safe storage requirements or 24/7 carry. The gun in the arms room doesn't do you much good when you need it in an emergency, and in garrison, absent a viable enemy threat, some bored troop WILL get into mischief, possibly fatal.
IF we are talking a personal CCW, don't argue logistics. Screw logistics, its your personal weapon, you are the logistics train for it, NOT the service.
Giving everyone ammo for the service weapons to carry at all times, AND CHANGING NOTHING ELSE would be a disaster.
Being an officer, or senior NCO does not make one immune from stupidity. In my personal experience, often the reverse.
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
Exactly. Case in point: During field training exercises at Ft. Lewis in the late '70s, some of the troopies got bored playing hide and seek in the woods, so they took out their blank adaptors, and put small rocks down the muzzles of their M-16s to shoot at birds. Well, of course, up pops a "Red" team member, and Pow: two rocks into the abdomen.
Had a heckuva time convincing my ops officer that it wasn't an aggravated assault, because there was no element of intent. Fortunately, the victim survived, or we would have had to work it as an invol manslaughter.
Pond James Pond
New member
I have ZERO military training beyond...
... some console games now and again so the following is just my opinion with the usual monetary value attached to it.
Regardless of the causes, the fact is that the current geopolitical climate has meant that the likelihood of attacks against military personnel are on the increase largely because they are seen as legit targets and symbols for the "enemy regime".
So really Western governments (UK and France have recently seen service personnel being targeted on home soil) need to consider which is the likely cause of greater avoidable casualties: ND's on base or "terrorist" attacks.
Better still find a compromise that can tackle both.
This idea of designated shooters, such as officers, on a base already makes a lot of sense. If these people are being trusted to make judgement calls that can minimise risk to their men but also defeat the enemy, they should be trusted with firearms on a base...
Just my 2€¢
... some console games now and again so the following is just my opinion with the usual monetary value attached to it.
Regardless of the causes, the fact is that the current geopolitical climate has meant that the likelihood of attacks against military personnel are on the increase largely because they are seen as legit targets and symbols for the "enemy regime".
So really Western governments (UK and France have recently seen service personnel being targeted on home soil) need to consider which is the likely cause of greater avoidable casualties: ND's on base or "terrorist" attacks.
Better still find a compromise that can tackle both.
This idea of designated shooters, such as officers, on a base already makes a lot of sense. If these people are being trusted to make judgement calls that can minimise risk to their men but also defeat the enemy, they should be trusted with firearms on a base...
Just my 2€¢
rwilson452
New member
I recall several decades ago aboard ship the senior NCOs we called to the wardroom for a meeting with the CO. He extended an apology for the repeated actions of some of the Junior Officers. In his apology he expressed the opinion that sometime you need to treat JOs like you would treat a Seaman Apprentice ( E-2). Just because someone is an officer doesn't mean they will act in a responsible manner. Someone goes to the academy at age 18, does 4 years. they are now 22 and have their commission. Research shows on average young men don't start to settle down until are 24.
There is an old saying that the biggest difference between a PFC and a 2ndLT is that the PFC has been promoted, twice.
IF you take an M16 blank, and insert it in the muzzle, give it a good rap with a rock (never use your helmet, Sgts can hear that sound a mile off), so it jams in there, and then fire a blank, the case is capable of punching through the door of a deuce and a half at close range. (don't ask)
there was a story in the 70s of how a guy used a blank and shot a section of cleaning rod into a landing helicopter engine. 3 or 4 dead.
I personally did the ECOD for an M16 that was blown up using blanks.
I saw a guy get hit with the blank adaptor when it blew off an M60. (hey, in was in our wire!!)
And all these were in training. NOT combat ops.
Few things are a destructively inventive as a bored GI, E or O grade, young, away from home, and lacking adult supervision, even for a few minutes.
They always have been. Soldiers, and political office holders ARE legitimate targets of war. Attack only them, and you are a revolutionary, attack people who aren't members of the "enemy" government or govt forces, and you are a terrorist.
The Sherriff of Nottingham and his guards are legitimate targets, the village peasants are not.
IF you take an M16 blank, and insert it in the muzzle, give it a good rap with a rock (never use your helmet, Sgts can hear that sound a mile off), so it jams in there, and then fire a blank, the case is capable of punching through the door of a deuce and a half at close range. (don't ask)
there was a story in the 70s of how a guy used a blank and shot a section of cleaning rod into a landing helicopter engine. 3 or 4 dead.
I personally did the ECOD for an M16 that was blown up using blanks.
I saw a guy get hit with the blank adaptor when it blew off an M60. (hey, in was in our wire!!)
And all these were in training. NOT combat ops.
Few things are a destructively inventive as a bored GI, E or O grade, young, away from home, and lacking adult supervision, even for a few minutes.
They always have been. Soldiers, and political office holders ARE legitimate targets of war. Attack only them, and you are a revolutionary, attack people who aren't members of the "enemy" government or govt forces, and you are a terrorist.
The Sherriff of Nottingham and his guards are legitimate targets, the village peasants are not.
rwilson452
New member
I was long gone before the Navy got M16s or M4s. I started on M1. My last command had hand me down M14s the navy got from the USMC. Do to duties assigned outside my primary NEC ( I think that is the equivalent of the army MOS) I was qualified on all small arms on board. .38, .45 M1 carbine, M1, M14, Two different shotguns, Thompson, BAR, 30 cal MG. Not to mention the venerable Ma deuce. I did like the BAR. I never had to carry it very far. My ship was only 400 ft long and 40 ft wide.
Even the more junior of my group knew the firearms we used were not toys and they were to be treated with respect. Truthfully in my primary specialty they had to score in the top 10% smarts wise to get to be where they were. Perhaps that made the difference.
I guess what I'm saying is the rule of exceptions needs to be noted and accounted for.
Even the more junior of my group knew the firearms we used were not toys and they were to be treated with respect. Truthfully in my primary specialty they had to score in the top 10% smarts wise to get to be where they were. Perhaps that made the difference.
I guess what I'm saying is the rule of exceptions needs to be noted and accounted for.
On the highway about 200 yards from where i sit is a small memorial to a man who was killed there by an off duty Ft. Sill MP. Weapon used was the MP's duty gun.
An altercation of some sort took place at the girlie bar up the road. The victim left, followed by the MP and his Army buds. The victim was either run off the road or had stopped. The MP was sentenced to life.
In 2007 a gang related altercation took place in the parking lot of said girlie bar. All the participants were Army members. Numerous 5.56mm rounds were fired and one soldier was killed. An M16 rifle was found in the ditch some distance from the bar.
The US military recruits from the huge unwashed gene pool that gives us crooked cops, molesting priests, ax murderers and serial rapists.
We do not need troops carrying personal weapons on base.
An altercation of some sort took place at the girlie bar up the road. The victim left, followed by the MP and his Army buds. The victim was either run off the road or had stopped. The MP was sentenced to life.
In 2007 a gang related altercation took place in the parking lot of said girlie bar. All the participants were Army members. Numerous 5.56mm rounds were fired and one soldier was killed. An M16 rifle was found in the ditch some distance from the bar.
The US military recruits from the huge unwashed gene pool that gives us crooked cops, molesting priests, ax murderers and serial rapists.
We do not need troops carrying personal weapons on base.
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NJgunowner
New member
The simple solution to this is make those who want to carry meet the requirements for carrying concealed of whatever state they are in. Most states require they get some training, learn the laws, etc.
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