Armed stand off in Texas

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gopher:
This from the Dallas Observer 7-27-00
http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2000-07-27/news.html
[/quote]
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The article is quite interesting,
because is shows in action the typical
propaganda gymnastics of pro-government
extremists in the media.
I wonder if anyone has noticed that there
is one person there who is unquestionably a
mentally deranged creep endangering those
he is supposed to protect.
10 points for the correct guess on the identity of the feral loon.


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LowClassCat
Always willing to calculate my chances
 
I left and came back to this a couple of times, because I just wasn't sure what to say (if anything).

Jeff OMTG, you hit on a subject that is a semi sore one with me: mandatory insurance. Me not carrying any in no way infringes on your rights. Not in the least. If I don't have insurance, and I am at fault in an accident with you, then you can sue me in court. But to say that it is a good idea for the government to enforce seatbelt provisions and mandatory insurance laws is to step away from freedom and liberty, ever so slightly, in my opinion. It takes away another rung on the ladder of personal responsibility, and that's not something we need in this day and age.

Mr. Gray may or may not be a decent person. Not one of us knows him personally, from what I have read here. He may feel strongly that his Constitutional rights have been violated, and he may also be of the opinion that there's no way he could get a "fair trial". I suspect that finding yourself in that situation would put most of us ill at ease. Think about it: cops violate your rights on a road-side stop. Your word against theirs. Who has the automatic credibility? As someone else said, if he had it in his mind to hurt them, he could have gone to his shoulder rig and done some real damage.

It was mentioned more than once that we are getting the Chronicle's side of the story here. I grew up an hour east of Houston, and I spotted the HC for the tripe that it is when I was a young lad.

Once again, something about all this isn't sounding right or adding up. Gonna have to pay attention to this one.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff OTMG:
Gray was stopped and cited for driving without a license and having no proof of insurance.

He does want a license or to prove fiscal responsibility, but he seems to have no problem using publicly funded roadways. WHAT A HYPOCRIT!!! If you want to drive around without a license and no financial responsibility, even drive drunk, I DON'T CARE, just do it on your own property and not on roads that the rest of us use.
[/quote]

Jeff,

Insurance is for YOUR assets, not for someone else's. If someone wants their assets covered it should not have to be paid for by someone else. The regulation for mandatory insurance is another take-from-the-other-guy-to-pay-for-your-negligence program.

I agree that the other things that this article has reported make this man appear to be a nut case, but then again, how much do we complain about how the media is eating out of goverment's hand?

Do you really trust this article?

Did you trust the articles about Waco when they were written?

I don't.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
We have a Paul Revere on TFL. His profile indicated that he is an executive from Chicago, though.

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NRA/GOA/SAF/USMC

Oregon residents please support the Oregon Firearms Federation, our only "No compromise" gun lobby. http://www.oregonfirearms.org
 
Jeff OTMG, you make a number of good points.

Is Gray looking for trouble? Well, it appears, even from the slant of these stories, that he is responding to actions by others. Actions most of us would expect, like insurance papers, drivers licenses, etc. But, I don't see evidence he is a criminal harassing others. However, from the state's perspective I'm sure they see this as 'looking for trouble', since he has decided to quit cooperating with coercion.

As far as being a hypocrite for using 'public' roads, I think that is an interesting point. Actually, I believe most road construction comes from gas taxes, which I assume he pays when he buys fuel. And, early in our country's history, private toll roads were apparently fairly common. If we want to get anywhere these days we have to use public roads because of the way the system has developed. So, from one perspective, he's probably paying for the roads anyway, he is forced to use public roads if he wants to go anywhere, and it appears that he bridles against the other, bureaucratic controls we force on people.

Regarding custody of his children, this is a travesty. Tarkington shouldn't be denied the right to see his sons. However, you and I both know that if his wife had played the 'game', as you so appropriately put it, as the mother, she would most likely have been awarded custody.

Gray's confrontations with Tarkington appear to have been very near the Gray homestead. I don't see this as analygous with a Wal-Mart parking lot in town. While I may disagree with the possible religious venom spewed by Gray, if I had someone driving by my home regularly to examine my family and property, I might confront them at some point. And, we don't know what Tarkington said.

At this point I may sound like I'm headed to Texas to aid Gray. No. This fellow is not my cup of tea from the sound of things, but it also sounds like the media is helping to set him up for a subsequent attack. I wouldn't draw the line where Gray has. And, at this point, it sounds as though Gray is pulling into himself and his 'safe house' more and more tightly. His fear and loathing of the state is, unfortunately, being substantiated by their actions and his.

I'm simply saying that the increasing coercions of our society are building, and we'll see more 'Grays' in years to come. I think, as a society, we would be wise to view this not simply as isolated cases of psychotic behavior, but also as indicators of a society becoming too intrusive.

This evening my wife told me she had heard about a new law in Ohio (I have no substantiation, other than her comments). This law would impose certain restrictions if you buy more than 5 kegs of beer at a time. She said there was a 5 day waiting period, the state had to approve your party, and you waived your rights, and granted the state the right to inspect your property. True? Well, I hope not, but sadly ... it would not surprise me.

'They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.' Benjamin Franklin, 1759

I hope this situation ends peacefully, and I hope Tarkington and his ex-wife can arrive at some amicable settlement regarding their children. This situation certainly should not result in serious injury or loss of life ... there is not enough cause. Unless, of course, you're the 'state', and you cannot abide citizens who do not mind.

Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
Don't get too hot too fast, guys. This is in my neck of the woods (very close) and NOTHING is happening except the ex-son in law is trying to stir up some action. He is NOT suceeding yet. The East Texas Sheriffs (for the most part) are reward jobs for being good Democraps. Very few will even investigate a crime unless you literally hand the crook over to them. Unless it is a drug bust that they can get in on with the Feds and get to confiscate a neat car or truck. Mine drives a nice SUV.
If you start hearing about child abuse or "Meth Labs" or illegal automatic weapons, then it will be time to start worrying. And thats when I will be in the area checking out what's going on and posting it everywhere I can think of.
Keep watching though, this stuff can deteriorate overnight if some local Fed wants to make a name for himself and move up to the big leagues back East. (They mostly consider any post outside the Beltway as a punishment job)


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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
It's difficult to say if this guy is a nutcase or not. The warrants for his arrest because of his lack of license and insurance are ridiculous. Yes, they're legal, but does it makes sense to take $300,000 from a guy and put him in jail because he doesn't have a piece of paper? That's wrong.

He should have paid for his electricity. Perhaps he hooked up his generator and stopped using the electricity. Often, the electric company will continue to charge you even if you don't use it (line fees and the like), and without a telephone, they couldn't contact him to find out what happened.

As for child custody, how would you feel if your child was awarded to your spouse when you knew that you'd probably never see that child again, and that your spouse wasn't going to raise that child properly? Maybe you'd try to keep her anyway. There's nothing wrong with trying to protect your child when the courts make the wrong decision.

I don't know if that is what happened, but it's resonable considering his other actions. Look at the source of our information... the local police and the son-in-law who ALL have an axe to grind against this guy. None of the locals said anything negative about him.

As for his threats of violence, well, if someone harrassed you and put you in a cell when you left your house and was going to put you back in there and take money from you for wanting to be left alone, you might be feeling a little violent too.

We have an incomplete story.
 
Interesting story. Unfortunately we are forced to once again rely on information given us by a media that portrayed the Davidians as heartless cooks bent on drug abuse and incestuous relations. The same group of people who portrayed Randy Weaver and his family as evil incarnate. The same group of people who claim Bill Clinton is better than sliced bread. So far the only thing I am tempted to belive is that here is some guy living in East Texas who dislikes the government and has without harming anyone decided to ignore them, who happens to have a daughter involved in a custody battle and has a few arrest warrants for technical violations of a couple of STUPID laws. All of this is even up to debate since the source of the info is the son-in-law involved in the custody battle (who has a clear stake in the matter) and the media who couldn't report the truth if it bit them on their privates.

Now, I totally disagree with the daughter and her decision to not legally secure custody of her kids. Even if it was against my religion to abide by gov. I would have still done it as a CYA thing. Kids are a bit too precious from my perspective. On the other hand we dont know what really happened. Maybe she got the wrong date. Maybe they moved up the court date and "forgot" to notify her. Maybe he was molesting the kids and she did not want to risk it. We just dont kno wht whole story.

As for driving without a license and proof of insurance. Who really cares. The proof of insurance law here is by far the stupidest thing to come along in a long time. People who can afford to spend a couple of hundred a month on insuring their cars could just as easily afford the payments for the repairs. The only difference being that some insuracne company gets to take your money whether you need it or not, for the rest of your driving life. I sure would love to have an extra $1200 per year to pay off my car loans early or maybe even repay my tuition earlier. Cant have that though. Those who cant afford this also cant afford insurance and dont have it. Just ask to see how many people are involved in accidents with uninsured motorists. Heck, those of us who can afford insurance also pay to cover being hit by an uninsured driver. What a great racket.

I'd wait to get some good information before jumping to any conclusions.

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"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAZ:
Now, I totally disagree with the daughter and her decision to not legally secure custody of her kids. Even if it was against my religion to abide by gov. I would have still done it as a CYA thing. Kids are a bit too precious from my perspective. On the other hand we dont know what really happened. Maybe she got the wrong date. Maybe they moved up the court date and "forgot" to notify her. Maybe he was molesting the kids and she did not want to risk it. We just dont kno wht whole story.

I'd wait to get some good information before jumping to any conclusions.
[/quote]

The mother took the kids without divorcing the husband. She moved in with her father after she was arrested for driving without a license, registration or license plates (she was driving with "Embassy of Heaven" issued documents. The woman has never claimed molestation and no court action has been initiated because they can't get anybody to serve the papers to the woman.

Local sheriffs finally resorted to just sticking them on the fence post. Read the Dallas Observer story that somebody linked to for more detail.

You guys can think what you want about Gray - but this isn't anyone I am going to rally around. I am all for giving him a fair hearing in court but that's a little hard to do when he won't go to court and actively resists arrest.

This isn't similar to Waco in any way shape or form.
 
But does he and those with him deserve 'Waco-Style Justice'?

That is my question and I answer that he does not.

He may be a weirdo and a minor criminal. But that does not warrant an FBI HRT BBQ in Texas!!!
 
Cassidy, the FBI has already said that they have no interest in this case as they have NO jurisdiction. There IS NO CONFRONTATION! The cops aren't even parked out there. The only one who goes out there is the ex son in law. He may get his b*** shot off if he keeps it up, but there are no lawmen around. They know it Ain't anything worth dying or killing over. The entire "confrontation" is in the newspapers.

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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
Yes TexasVet you are correct, that is the way it is now, but we shall see where this goes.

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
So none of you would drive by to try to see your kids if your ex took them???? Try to put yourself in the husbands shoes. Things aren't always as complex as you might think. Maybe he just wants to see his kids???? hhhhhmmmm what a bad guy.

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"Some people spend an entire liftime wondering if they made a difference. Marines don't have that problem."
Semper Fi
 
102K. Time to close this one.

A "Part 2" would be in order as further developments become known.

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
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