Armed guards at Columbine...why "ineffective"?

[Come and take it.]

Didn't he shoot the glass - so what does that have to do with it?

School glass in the doors and entry way windows have a layer of wire interlaced within it. If the glass breaks you still have to hack a way through the wire to get in. That takes time. In the case of our lightly constructed invader, a lot of time.

If the glass in the foyer did not have the wire than it was not up to specs.

if the officers are exposed to a sudden armed attack (since it is likely that if the perpetrator knows that the school is protected, he will first plan on eliminating/killing the armed guard or guards) they will more likely become victims than they will be able to stop the attack. My youngest son's high school, not too many years ago, had an armed police officer seated at the desk where visitors were supposed to sign in. If there were an intent to kill students or others, it would have been extremely easy to just walk in and then shoot the officer, thus eliminating the only armed individual who could stop the shooter.

It may be easy or it may not. What at first would be an easy unstoppable shooting rampage now becomes a complex problem of how to surprise the police officer. Will he remain seated? Will he notice you as suspicious before you get close? Does he have body armor on?

A lot of things can go wrong. What seems like an easy operation now becomes something a bit more complex. The act of attempting to take on an armed man frontally at close range.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

School glass in the doors and entry way windows have a layer of wire interlaced within it. If the glass breaks you still have to hack a way through the wire to get in. That takes time. In the case of our lightly constructed invader, a lot of time.

If the glass in the foyer did not have the wire than it was not up to specs.

This is categorically incorrect.

Wired glass was 1940s technology. It hasn't been used for decades. MANY decades. Current technology (since probably the 1950s or early 60s) is tempered glass. That's what's used in doors and sidelights because (like the side windows in your car), when it breaks it disintegrates into small granules that are less likely to carve you to ribbons like plain float glass.

 

[Come and take it.]

it is currently being used in most schools. It is not 40s technology. They are trying to find alternatives such as ballistic materials that won't shatter as easily.

http://www.usglassmag.com/USGlass/2002/0202/greatwiredglassdebate.html

One of the attributes to this stuff is that when the glass shatters much of it still clings to the wire making it very difficult for someone to grab the wire and rip it away without slicing their hands up.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

it is currently being used in most schools.

No it is not. Not for entrance doors.

I have worked as an architect and as a building inspector for over 35 years. Wire glass is used for the small vision panels in fire-rated exit doors. It is NOT used in large, plate glass entrance doors and the sidelights for those.

Don't spread misinformation. The door or sidelight that the Sandy Hook shooter shot out to gain entry was NOT wire glass. It was tempered plate glass, which is what would be required today for that application in every state of the U.S.

 

[PawPaw]

They don't radio for backup. They don't stop to render aid. They don't coordinate backup. Their job is basically to squash the shooter(s) as quickly as possible.

I am a currently serving school resource officer in a high school that was built in 1926. I've seen every type glass imaginable in that school and can almost tell when it was installed by the type. We've still got glass panes that were originally installed when the building was constructed.

Yeah, I'd call for backup in the event of an active shooter, but I'd call while I was enroute to engage the shooter. My job at that point would be simple. Move to and engage the shooter. Keep engaging him until the fight is over. Hopefully, when the cavalry arrived, it would be all over.

I don't sit at the front door, I try to keep moving all day, and not establish a pattern that can be exploited. I carry two radios, one police handheld and one school handheld. Any administrator or custodian can contact me at any time. Most teachers have my cell number. I'm easy to locate, although I might be anywhere on campus.

I've been a cop for over 30 years and an SRO for the past 10 years. This is probably the most demanding job I've ever done in police work, not because I'm busy all the time, but because I generally have very little to do. One school is my sole responsibility, and you've got to be the type who likes working alone. But, if it ever comes to my worst nightmare, I'll be really busy really fast.

 

[old roper]

I know some of the school district around Colorado Springs have hire police officers full time they have deal with city and school district pays for it. I know some of the school are doing what PAWPAW talking about also.

I think lot of things changed here after the Columbine shooting for some of the larger school district that could afford to pay for extra security. I went to a Catholic grade school in San Francisco and when back last year and school looks like a prison with all the high fences don't think it's to keep the kid in.

 

[PawPaw]

I know some of the school district around Colorado Springs have hire police officers full time they have deal with city and school district pays for it. I know some of the school are doing what PAWPAW talking about also.

Roper's right, there is more than one way to skin a cat and every locality has to do what works best for it. What works in my hometown might not work in yours, either politically or fiscally, so everyone has to do what's best as defined by the local population.

Our Sheriff decided in 2002 that he wanted a deputy in each school and he was willing to eat the whole cost in an attempt to prevent a tragedy. He made an agreement with the school district and placed a deputy in every school in his jurisdiction beginning in the 2002-03 school year. The difference in the way that we do it, is that I do not work for the school, I'm a sheriff's deputy. I'm not an administrator, I don't answer to the school system, and I'm free to do my job as long as I keep my Captain happy. My job is solely to keep the kids safe and each SRO is able to do that in the way that best fits the school. We're also free to transfer in and out of the Division, to seek those assignments that suit us best. Many of my SRO brethren have gone on to other assignments in other Divisions of the department.

 

[Come and take it.]

No it is not. Not for entrance doors.

I have worked as an architect and as a building inspector for over 35 years. Wire glass is used for the small vision panels in fire-rated exit doors. It is NOT used in large, plate glass entrance doors and the sidelights for those.

Don't spread misinformation. The door or sidelight that the Sandy Hook shooter shot out to gain entry was NOT wire glass. It was tempered plate glass, which is what would be required today for that application in every state of the U.S. ]

My daughters elementary school was built in 2001. I have waited many times in the foyer for school to let out to pick up my kid in the past. I have stared at those windows on countless occasions admiring the metal wires interlaced in the glass.

I suppose I was just hallucinating. Whatever your credentials and claims in my eyes seeing is believing and you can google wired security windows or glass and you will come up with numerous examples, of which I will not post pictures because of the trouble to get them to photobucket so I could post an image.

The link I gave explaining the debate between wire security glass and other forms of security glass was not a hallucination either obviously.

I think you are getting fire rating specs confused with glass intended to prevent break-ins.

 

[old roper]

Come and take it, I'm with you and I'm not getting into Sandy Hook.

I worked construction SF around the bay area and lot of the older skylights big panels has wire glass same with the entrance doors on apt/schools. I remember them back helping my dad in the 50's and lot of homes that has skylight use that type glass and I re-caulked lot of that glass.

I was in high school when this happened

March 22, 1957
The worst earthquake since 1906 struck at 11:45 this morning, and registered 5.3 on the Richter scale. The main shock had been preceded by at least six smaller quakes throughout the morning. The quake started some fires, including a blaze caused by a spill in the chemistry lab at old Lowell High School, according to Lowell student Frederick F. Postel. Fires connected to the earthquake broke out, but that was denied by the Fire Chief, possibly for political reasons. The tremor was preceded by a magnitude 3 shock at 8:38 a.m., and a magnitude 3.75 quake at 10:48 a.m. There were no lives lost. The quake was centered in the Westlake District of Daly City where many water heaters were ripped from their moorings and much plaster was damaged.

High School did suffer damage arcways connecting building separated very little glass damage most of that was non wire glass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balboa_High_School_(California)

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The link I gave explaining the debate between wire security glass and other forms of security glass was not a hallucination either obviously.

I think you are getting fire rating specs confused with glass intended to prevent break-ins.

The link you provided clearly states that wired glass is for fire-rated applications and is NOT for security glazing.

It is important to realize that wired glass is primarily a fire-rated product. For that reason, since the enactment of the CPSC’s regulations in 1977, the use of wired glass in doors has been limited to those doors that are fire-rated. It may not be used in doors that are not fire-rated.