Armed Citizen: Oklahoma Pharmacist Defends Employees from Robbers

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My opinion on head shots: full spectrum of possibility. Fortunately I've only dealt with a handful--a couple of which were self-inflicted. One a teenager shot in the face with a 410 w/ birdshot--survived but later pronouced a non-survivable injury by a neurosurgeon and care w/drawn. Another birdshot to the face was wide-awake with globe rupture and multiple intra-cranial pellets left in place, as there was no benefit to removing them.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, being shot is nothing like the movies where a person just drops and its lights out, even if shot in the head. There can be gargling of blood, avulsed ears, and ruptured globes--along with any possible soft tissue mutilation you can dream of and a variable change in mental status.

My thoughts are that consciousness in this case would be related to any of several things. Were there bullet fragments in, or did they pass through the brain, violating the dura. Was there (on autopsy) contusion or intracranial hemorrhage which would signify a significant blunt force injury to the brain. Did the patient have signs of stroke or vascular compromise from traumatic dissection. What kind of projectile hit where and were there skull fractures, CSF leaks, etc. The sinuses and maxilla can act like the crunch zone of a car and absorb a modest amount of injury, protecting the brain. Obviously the skull is a sphere, which is the most resiliant shape a structure can have (remember the squeeze an egg trick). Was the intruder on drugs? That can clearly affect mentation after an injury or the threshold at which one loses consciousness.

For the injury to be labeled simply "survivable" to me is meaningless, as anyone can survive with a brainstem, ventilator, tube feeds and a 16 year-old's heart/lungs. As mentioned, though, the autopsy could show signs of intracranial trauma (either blunt or penetrating) which would most likely correlate with state of global impairment (or threat neutralization). In the absence of intra-cranial contusion or hemorrhage (to me the "full recovery" group), however, one could never prove that he wasn't wide awake, screaming "I'm going to kill you", and searching for a weapon while down on the floor.

I think that the pathology is going to be the deciding factor for this guy, should it conclude that there was significant head trauma, which would have rendered this man unquestionably "out of commision," he has no case for finishing him off. If the trauma was minor, however (such as that sustained from bird shot), he could very clearly be justified in neutralizing a potential threat.

I hope that my opinion is unbiased. As an aside, IMO, BB and smaller sized shot are a poor choice for self defense.
 
Excellent opinion Doc, very enlightening.
I would like to ask a couple of questions, from a purely hypothetical standpoint.

A.) Is it within the realm of possibility that someone could receive a blunt force trauma to the head, from a projectile, that could render them unconscious for 3 to 5 minutes, and, leave little permanent impairment ?

B.) In such a blunt force trauma, how long might it take for capillary damage to manifest as a significant intra-cranial contusion?

C.) Would/Could such capillary leakage continue post-mortem?

Thanks.
 
How likely is it that a gunshot wound to the head could cause enough neurologic damage to render a patient comatose and immobile for the period of time we see on the tape, and still expect (1)survival, or (2) a full recovery as, if I recall correctly, was said by the DA.

This is a really difficult question. Part of my residency training involved managing traumatic brain injury (TBI) patients, so I'll try to add a few, hopefully helpful comments to shed some light on this issue.

Like surg_res wrote, "survivable" is really pretty meaningless. It is the post-traumatic cognitive and functional deficits that are key. Following a traumatic brain injury, e.g. from a direct injury to the brain, increased intracranial pressure or mass effects from brain edema/hematoma formation/intracranial bleeding/etc, and resultant brain/brain stem herniation, resultant brain ischemia, etc., the range of outcomes varies all the way from death, to profoundly decreased consciousness states such as coma, a vegetative state, or a minimally conscious state, to various degrees of cognitive and functional deficits.

Based on the exact nature of the brain trauma and associated findings postmortem, I think that a pathologist ought to be able to provide some basic idea of just how mortal or debilitating the brain injury component was (degree and location of damaged brain tissue, amount of brain herniation, etc.), but in the way I see it, based on what we see on the tape, one cannot draw many conclusions at all about either the degree of the injury, nor about the likelihood of any recovery.

First of all we cannot even see what is happening to the shot individual, i.e. does he even have any vital signs (he could be dead already), what exactly is his level of consciousness, is he unconscious and posturing (decerebrate, decorticate), etc., etc.,?

Lastly, should he have survived the injury but still remained unconscious, if the patient is still unconscious at 1 month post TBI (i.e. a GCS of < 8) there is only around a 50% likelihood of regaining consciousness by 1 year post injury.

So, in conclusion, it is rather difficult to know what the situation with the shot individual was based only on what we see on that tape.
 
To get a qualified Pathologist and Neurological Expert (would have to be a neurosurgeon IMHO) to testify as experts for the defense will cost a minimum of $20,000

Lets not minimize the financial consequences to the Pharmacist

WildniceexplorationofthemedicalissuesAlaska TM
 
You're correct - I erred in saying it was illegal. (Historical note - I usually only admit error to my wife).
Do you really do that? You're my hero.:D Interesting handle also, reminds me of the book 2001: A Space Odyssey.;)


Ersland used the 45/.410 Taurus Judge first? Then he chose the lesser .380 ACP to put the next 5 rounds into Parker. Ballistically that does not make sense to me, unless perhaps the Taurus did have shotshells in it, or Ersland completely emptied it.
The DA said he fired at least 2 rounds outside. It could have been empty.
 
GSUeagle1089,

Thanks for the excellent summary.

Thankyou.

Just to give my opinion in a nutshell so everyone knows where I stand I will say this. If it is found that Parker was attempting to get up I believe that Ersland would be totally justified as he had no idea whether or not Parker had any concealed weapons on him and Parker was becoming a threat again.

If it is found that Parker was still unconscious or not making any significant attempts to regain his footing as Ersland fired the .380 into him I believe that Ersland should face some sort of jail time. However, I highly oppose an out and out homicide conviction as that would entail a life sentence which I do not believe is right for Ersland and would send a very dangerous message to other scumbags like Parker, I am more in favor of a negligent homicide or manslaughter conviction.

Also, isn't giving a false statement to the police a crime? The video clearly show that Ersland did this. I believe that he should also face some sort of charge for this. Lying is for children, adults should stand behind and own up to their actions.
 
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I agree w/ SOVT.

I am not a pathologist but my best answers would be yes, minutes to days, and no.

Once the kid was dead, the intracranial pressure equals the blood pressure and the blood coagulates without further leak. Some contusions "blossom" over a couple of days, but this is a radiographic description--describing contusion evolution. He could very eaily have been knocked unconscious from blunt force, and have a potential full recovery. People have concussions and head injuries all the time and return to normal. This is much less likely w/ penetrating injury to brain or acute mass effect (i.e. hematoma), as these would destroy tissue which the body cannot replace.

Too many variables and too little info in this case to know.

Lastly, should he have survived the injury but still remained unconscious, if the patient is still unconscious at 1 month post TBI (i.e. a GCS of < 8) there is only around a 50% likelihood of regaining consciousness by 1 year post injury.

Good point, though I would have guessed much less. So many also die from complications during that time, especially when ventilator-dependent.

To get a qualified Pathologist and Neurological Expert (would have to be a neurosurgeon IMHO) to testify as experts for the defense will cost a minimum of $20,000

Wildthatshowmuchyoudhavetopaymetosufferthroughthatcaseinsteadofoperatingonthesick
 
Thanks to our resident experts' opinions (thanks Docs :) )

I can now postulate the following;

It is within the realm of reasonable possibilities that Parker could have received a wound sufficient to incapacitate him temporarily, with some or no permanent effects.

That it is possible that he could have received these injuries, been incapacitated, and unless there was sufficient time between the injury, and death, the injury might not be detectable during autopsy.

OuTcircumstantialevidenceisabitchcAsT
 
Good thing this particular call was not yours to make !


Are ya gonna tell me you are gonna let someone slide on your next patrol if he "mistakenly" murders someone?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that absent the lowlifes coming into his place of business and committing armed robbery he would still be a free man.

I say a plea of GUILTY for voluntary manslaughter with a short or suspended sentence would be a proper punishment.

Don't start nothing won't be nothing as the kids say.

Actually, if I had to make a professional statement of opinion I would be very likely to think he did exactly that. I would be of an opinion that someone capable of such an act went to work each day thinking "If anyone breaks in here I am going to kill them and this is how I will do it..."

Someone that does what this man did is not a good guy and does not deserve much benefit of the doubt. I supported him fully at the beginning of this thread, but his actions changed all that.

I agree the coming back and shooting absent a threat from the downed offender is wrong. However, you cannot make assumptions about the man's life and day to day mindset. What makes him not a good guy, that he screwed up on the worst day of his life after enduring a traumatic experience that he had no choice in participating in.

I don't condone lying to the Police in any situation and to my mind is the worst thing he did that day. Shut up and get a lawyer.

He is the victim, an imperfect victim, but a victim nonetheless.
 
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As the puncher and punchee in scraps that left the receiver (me or them) totally out cold I have never seen a fist leave a guy out more than 90 seconds with the average being 20-40 seconds... 3 minutes out cold is a real lucky shot! Heck I thought I killed a guy when he was out 20-30 seconds! Don't claim a fist thrown shot does this routinely... Body lock up is immediate and convulsions follow after 20-30 seconds the norm... 45 seconds is a stretch and one minute is a rarity!
Brent
 
I agree the coming back and shooting absent a threat from the downed offender is wrong. However, you cannot make assumptions about the man's life and day to day mindset
Actually you can do just that. A trial will pretty much be a group of people doing just that same thing based on the evidence provided.
 
>I have seen folks punched by a fist stay out longer than that.<

With equal respect, the prognosis for recovery is, absent significant intracranial bleeding, going to be significantly poorer from a penetrating wound that for blunt trauma - more tissue damage, more bleeding, etc. The severe brain damage and fatalities that occasionally occur in boxing are due not to the initial trauma, but to a sort of crushing effect the brain when a significant amount of blood is introduced under pressure to a closed vessel, the skull, that is shaped and sized to hold ONLY the brain. Most blunt trauma injuries don't have that amount of bleeding. Many more penetrating wounds will. Also, I have been given to understand that bullets can ricochet inside the skull - essentially, they use up enough kinetic energy in entering that they don't have enough to penetrate the skull a second time and leave. Although it is not my choice of methods, I have colleagues who euthanize horses with a well-placed .22 round, taking advantage of this effect. Also, I believe it fair to say that the prognosis starts to go down with duration of neurologic symptoms. The boxer who is KOed but back up in 20 or 30 seconds, not without exception mind you, often recovers more fully than the one who is down for several minutes or who has to be helped back to the locker room where he collapses again.

I am also glad that surg res noted the variability in recovery from neurological wounds. I had hoped to elicit that, because I found the DA's statement that a full recovery could have been expected was too certain. There are indications from autopsy that certain outcomes may be more likely than others, but in situations like that, doctors dealing with live patients speak more often in terms of percentages rather than absolutes.

Those are the issues that our MD friends addressed better than I could. I brought them up because they could be weaknesses in the DA's pursuit of first degree murder case, and because in the discussion of tactics they could have a bearing on whether the down man was making purposeful movements or not. I appreciate the responses of the folks who have medical knowledge more specific to this case than I.
 
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Playboypenguin wrote:
Not exactly...it is educated theory. That will play a big part in the trial. Experts and specialists will be asked to attest to his likely state of mind based on his action. His actions and reactions are indicative of a man that has thought this through very thoroughly.

No psychologist is going risk his or her professional reputation giving expert testimony on someone's state of mind based on a video clip. A psychologist who is interested in protecting their professional reputation will only give an opinion in court after MULTIPLE interviews with the defendant before forming an opinion on the shooters state of mind during the shooting. And even then, many opinions are ruled inadmissible. Most courts these days rely on eye witness testimony. Not educated opinions or guesses from psychologists.

Trials are not guessing games about what someone did or didn't do. Its about proving what someone did or didnt do. There are strict rules regarding reasonable doubt and evidence.
 
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If it weren't a close call, there wouldn't be 16 pages of debate on the subject. Fortunately, if this goes to court, there will be a jury that will have to sit there and digest all of the details instead of us. As for now, I think we've clearly been given just enough rope to "hang ourselves" so to speak on this topic. Now it is time to give it up and just wait for the legal system to do its thing. I think jury selection is going to be a very decisive factor, should it come to that.
 
Agreed, further debate is only going to be a sliding toward this otherwise informative thread being locked due to bickering over personal bias, and random speculation.

I will withdraw and wait for further legal developments.
This has been an interesting discussion. :)
 
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