Armed citizen in the Kroger shooting

"This can't be happening . . ." is the #1 reason reason people come in 2nd in a gunfight.
That ... and they then take too long thinking through/deciding on "proper" reaction.

This is not in any way a slam on people who are part of an otherwise civilized society -- up to that instant in their lives.
But He Who Decides First Wins should never far from the back of y`all's minds.
 
What is necessary, and what normal people seem to find very difficult is ACCEPTING that what they are seeing is happening and not trying to explain it away. You don't have to EXPECT trouble around every corner. You don't need to keep looking around to see if anyone's going to attack you. But when things start to turn ugly, you need to be willing to ACCEPT reality and not waste time standing there trying to talk yourself out of acting.

Don't be the person on the news who says: "I never really thought it could happen to me. I couldn't believe it was really happening." Be willing to accept reality and to act without delay when necessary.
Click to expand...

I certainly agree in principle with everything you said. I've done two force on force scenarios and did reasonably well in each, although what blew my mind was "holy $%&@ that happened fast" and that was when I knew I should be expecting something to go down, and I knew that I was not actually in real danger.

I'm trying to imagine what might be going through the head of anyone like this man who's just walked into the prelude to murder and has no idea what's going on. Code Orange or not, I imagine this would be my situation:

Walking up to the store:
  • Thinking about what's on my shopping list, or what I'm cooking later, or "man this place is crowded, I hope I'm not here too long"
  • Noticing "woah, is that a gun in that guy's hand?"
  • "OK, it's a gun -- did he just shoot someone? Is he open carrying and dumb about it? Nah, probably not...someone said something about a shooting, maybe he shot the shooter and hasn't put his gun away yet?"

Then he points it at a bystander on the phone:
  • Wait, that's wrong, WTH is he doing? Is he gonna...
  • Holy hell, he did! OK, that's sinking in...maybe I'm thinking "draw and shoot!"
  • And at the same time, I'm probably thinking "that's a really big crowd of people just beyond him in the parking lot"
  • And let's be honest, in some subliminal way I'm thinking I really don't want to hurt this guy either, and that may well be the thing that most contributes to my failure to accept this situation for what it really is

And in that amount of time, he's got his gun aimed at me, my wife, or maybe someone else.

That's the disparity of evil. Even if I'm in Code Red 100% of the time and I'm the fastest draw in the world, I'm worried about hurting someone else. He isn't. He doesn't care if he misses and hits a bystander because he'd shoot them next anyways. We don't want to hurt people. We just want to go to the store and buy milk and get back to our homes.

Anyways, this story has made me think a lot about this stuff. One other thought I had was that -- so I'm told and have read -- attackers often/usually disengage when they're counter-attacked. Some run, some resort to suicide, whatever, but they break off their attack.

So Mr. Armed Citizen here may have waited too long, and missed what my range buddies would say was an easy shot. But the very fact that HE ENGAGED may be what caused the killer to keep running and not shoot anyone else in the parking lot. Quite likely that he DID in fact save lives, and possibly his own and his wife's.
 
Surviving a armed attack is probably not going to hinge solely upon a 1 second draw or expert marksmanship. Its more likely going to hinge on how quickly you realize that an attack is imminent /underway and how quickly you commit meaningful action toward your defense. A one second presentation is great but how long will it be before your brain flips the go switch.

I have seen plenty of expert shooters fail miserably in force on force simply because they are conflicted about how they qualify action and what action is appropriate. Essentially, they hesitate as they try to navigate mental, moral, ethical barriers. What is worse is that when they finally flip the go switch, they are 200% pure tunnel vision because they are not experienced in dealing with how the human body responds to stress and danger.

When it actually comes down to it, good people are typically going to be conflicted about the use of substantial force. We have been taught all our lives that violence is bad and to a large degree, it is. Never the less, if you are going to carry a gun for lawful self defense, you might ought to do some figuring and soul searching well ahead of time and decide exactly what you are willing to do if suddenly faced with perilous danger. I doubt your attacker will be very conflicted about what he is doing and is probably counting on you being bumbling in your response.
 
Last edited:
have been in that situation several times but in reality not training. Not bragging or anything else, it is just a simple fact due to my former job.

1. Suspension of Belief. This shooter did not want to process the totality of his circumstances. As you correctly point out, his situational awareness was lacking. You must be mentally prepared to fight and win. Certainly not a condemnation of the man as I believe many CCW holders would be in the same situation. I saw highly trained soldiers in combat loose their lives for this very reason. They simply did not want to believe they were in a life threatening situation when it was suddenly and without mercy thrust upon them. That woman might or might not be alive but he most certainly would have been better mentally prepared for the upcoming fight.

2. Brings us to the next point, lack of training. Like most CCW holders, I am sure this guy went to the range and considered himself proficient as the vast majority do.


Quote:
I know many people that look at reported accuracy rates of officer shootings and conclude that officers are deficient when it comes to marksmanship.

They are deficient when it comes to combat marksmanship because they shoot 200 rounds at qualification into paper. The way you train is the way you fight. Putting holes in paper does not make one proficient in a gunfight.

You are correct in marksmanship is not combat skills but rather only a part of the equation. This shooter faced a relatively rare situation and a difficult combat situation in the fact that rarely is a fight a toe to toe, face to face shoot out. Rather is generally a series of ambushes with one side or the other getting the drop on their opponent and firing at an in the moment unsuspecting target.

The face to face fight is when your marksmanship skills must be instinctive at engaging a moving target with precision. You must know to shoot whatever you are presented and shift that point of aim as more vulnerable areas come into your sector of fire. All of this comes down to how you train and your mental attitude.

This situation was a good justified shooting. I think there are some lessons to be learned and frankly some common errors I saw on the battlefield being repeated here. Take in the totality of the situation and without judgment, learn from them.
Click to expand...

best comment in the thread... very well stated.

Most of what people think is training, isn't and shooting prowess is not the same as fighting prowess.
 
When it actually comes down to it, good people are typically going to be conflicted about the use of substantial force. We have been taught all our lives that violence is bad and to a large degree, it is. Never the less, if you are going to carry a gun for lawful self defense, you might ought to do some figuring and soul searching well ahead of time and decide exactly what you are willing to do if suddenly faced with perilous danger. I doubt your attacker will be very conflicted about what he is doing and is probably counting on you being bumbling in your response.
Click to expand...

So many people forget this part. Maybe the guy being put to the test is one of the gung ho nutso types that has been waiting for decades for his chance to notch his belt, maybe the guy is the kind who wants a gun "just to scare him off."

as a scenario, two people walking down a street are confronted by a robber with a big freakin knife. Gimme your money, take off your shirt, yadda yadda, whatever the demand or threat is, this is not the time to be deciding who you are and what you are able to do.

A while back I realized that I was getting soft. I had a possum that had been causing trouble around here. I trapped him and was going to kill him, but with the muzzle on his brain stem, I couldn't do it. I drove it half a mile down the highway and threw it into someone else's yard.

There I was, the situation called for one thing and I wasn't spiritually ready for it. If the thing had threatened me, it would have been different.
 
There's an interesting book on the psychological factors and impacts associated with killing, primarily by firearms used by soldiers (but a lot of it is applicable to humanity in general). It's called, "On Killing". It's on the Marine Corps Commandant's reading list and I think is also required reading at the FBI Academy.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
I had a combat vet once ask me if I had ever had dreams about fighting or protecting myself/someone else from harm. I said sure.

He then asked.. in your dreams are you ever using force in slow motion or cant seem to put any force behind what you are doing.. does it ever seem like there is resistance like you are fighting in water or find that your actions have no effect on the other person?

I said.. No. In dreams, fighting is like fighting.

He said good! Your conscious mind and subconscious mind are one in the same. you are not conflicted.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top