AREA TARGET VS POINT TARGET during a CRITICAL MOMENT
- Thread starter U.S.SFC_RET
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Double Naught Spy
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Guys, some of you are right. I could lighten up. Then again, maybe some take the posted life or death advice a little more seriously. Some of you have and took a more critical look as the bizarre claims made.
I would not expect a new poster to immediately start posting on such matters with such definitive authority and experience, criticising those instructors without such critical experience, and then simply getting so much of the information wrong. Key terminology was in error, knowledge of physics was in error, claimed to have knowledge of a topic that simply didn't fit with being in the Army for 20+ years and that information on hollowpoint performance was not accurate, his biology was wrong, wrong military history, wrong 1911 history, and his ability to prognosticate what will happen to you if you shoot an attacker in the head was amazing. I am still working out how it is that I will be killed by an attacker that I have just shot in the head, but the guy said it would get me killed.
So the guy is giving suggestions on how one should handle themself in life or death shooting situations, establishing his credibility based on being in the military for 20+ years and being a firearms instructor with the needed experience to teach firearms. I have had some instructors that have twisted a fact, reversed numbers, etc. when speaking to a class, but not in their written material. I have done the same thing. However, this guy condensed a whole bunch of errors into a very short bit of text while telling all of us how it is in combat shooting as he obviously has a long career in that world.
If that many errors are going to be made, something is obviously wrong. I don't know what it is, but the guy is giving advice on life and death shooting tactics and that scares me. It scares me because somebody will read the post, take it to heart, and be misinformed.
U.S.SFC_RET, am I going to contest the military built a gun to shoot around corners? No, but you were so vague that there is nothing to contest. When you say "the" military designed a gun to shoot around corners, which military do you mean, how is the shot cornering, and when are you talking about it happening? What is interesting is that you mention it and as a military man firearms instructor, you seem to have conveniently left off any critical information such as a model number, caliber, rate of fire, or how it fires around corners. So of course I cannot contest your claim and I can't for the primary reason is that such devices have been around for at least 60 years.
The first one I know about was created by the Germans in WWII. I don't know that it was the first one developed, just the first I know about. Basically, it was the bent barrel Krummerlauf attachment on the MP44 assault rifle and a mirror system for sighting. It had limited field application because of the permanent bend to one direction or the other, but tankers liked it for providing cover fire when needing to exit a disabled tank. By pivoting the gun, they could sweep the outside of the tank before exiting the hatch. The mirror sighting was not typical of models provided to tanks.
A couple of years ago, the Israelis started trying to market their around corner shooting attachment system that included a curved barrel and camera with the barrel being able to be rotated around to use in different directions. The gun was marketed to the US Military and to a number of US police departments through Corner Shot out of Florida. I don't know that any adopted it or not.
By the way, here is a link to the Corner Shot system put together by our Jewish friends...
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/corner.asp
I know the US military has been toying with a variety of video system sighting designs which had applications to hit targets around the corner from the shooter, but the gun remained and straight line shooting gun such as a video adapted M16. Basically, the soldier panned the gun around a corner, using the camera on the gun to spot targets, depressing the trigger as necessary when a target was in the sights. The problem was that the hands were still very much exposed. It is better than popping your head out, but isn't true corner shooting.
There are also tests with range determined grenades that can be programmed to shoot beyond a particular point before exploding, such as X feet beyond a berm or X feet beyond the exterior wall of a structure when shooting through a window, thereby allowing the explosion to hit targets that otherwise would be protected.
Have you looked up the 1911 information yet? Please let me help you. You can find a lot of nifty information here... http://www.m1911.org/
How did you want your crow? Actually, crow isn't too bad so long as it is cleaned properly and cooked properly.
I would not expect a new poster to immediately start posting on such matters with such definitive authority and experience, criticising those instructors without such critical experience, and then simply getting so much of the information wrong. Key terminology was in error, knowledge of physics was in error, claimed to have knowledge of a topic that simply didn't fit with being in the Army for 20+ years and that information on hollowpoint performance was not accurate, his biology was wrong, wrong military history, wrong 1911 history, and his ability to prognosticate what will happen to you if you shoot an attacker in the head was amazing. I am still working out how it is that I will be killed by an attacker that I have just shot in the head, but the guy said it would get me killed.
So the guy is giving suggestions on how one should handle themself in life or death shooting situations, establishing his credibility based on being in the military for 20+ years and being a firearms instructor with the needed experience to teach firearms. I have had some instructors that have twisted a fact, reversed numbers, etc. when speaking to a class, but not in their written material. I have done the same thing. However, this guy condensed a whole bunch of errors into a very short bit of text while telling all of us how it is in combat shooting as he obviously has a long career in that world.
If that many errors are going to be made, something is obviously wrong. I don't know what it is, but the guy is giving advice on life and death shooting tactics and that scares me. It scares me because somebody will read the post, take it to heart, and be misinformed.
U.S.SFC_RET, am I going to contest the military built a gun to shoot around corners? No, but you were so vague that there is nothing to contest. When you say "the" military designed a gun to shoot around corners, which military do you mean, how is the shot cornering, and when are you talking about it happening? What is interesting is that you mention it and as a military man firearms instructor, you seem to have conveniently left off any critical information such as a model number, caliber, rate of fire, or how it fires around corners. So of course I cannot contest your claim and I can't for the primary reason is that such devices have been around for at least 60 years.
The first one I know about was created by the Germans in WWII. I don't know that it was the first one developed, just the first I know about. Basically, it was the bent barrel Krummerlauf attachment on the MP44 assault rifle and a mirror system for sighting. It had limited field application because of the permanent bend to one direction or the other, but tankers liked it for providing cover fire when needing to exit a disabled tank. By pivoting the gun, they could sweep the outside of the tank before exiting the hatch. The mirror sighting was not typical of models provided to tanks.
A couple of years ago, the Israelis started trying to market their around corner shooting attachment system that included a curved barrel and camera with the barrel being able to be rotated around to use in different directions. The gun was marketed to the US Military and to a number of US police departments through Corner Shot out of Florida. I don't know that any adopted it or not.
By the way, here is a link to the Corner Shot system put together by our Jewish friends...
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/corner.asp
I know the US military has been toying with a variety of video system sighting designs which had applications to hit targets around the corner from the shooter, but the gun remained and straight line shooting gun such as a video adapted M16. Basically, the soldier panned the gun around a corner, using the camera on the gun to spot targets, depressing the trigger as necessary when a target was in the sights. The problem was that the hands were still very much exposed. It is better than popping your head out, but isn't true corner shooting.
There are also tests with range determined grenades that can be programmed to shoot beyond a particular point before exploding, such as X feet beyond a berm or X feet beyond the exterior wall of a structure when shooting through a window, thereby allowing the explosion to hit targets that otherwise would be protected.
Have you looked up the 1911 information yet? Please let me help you. You can find a lot of nifty information here... http://www.m1911.org/
How did you want your crow? Actually, crow isn't too bad so long as it is cleaned properly and cooked properly.
too many choices!?
New member
Hey Weeg!!! I resemble some of those remarks! ROFLMAO
Ummm lotsa misinformation about..Knockdown power, as far as hand held non-explosive firearms are concerned, is a myth...But I'll be damned if anybody on here will argue against the 25mm cannon, m203, or M72 law, as not having,"knock down power"
:what:...
Knock down power is as simple concept, the amount of kinetic energy a moving object(or objects) has to impart to a stationary object in order to move(or topple) the stationary object. No I can't give a formula, so don't ask
...
Ummm lotsa misinformation about..Knockdown power, as far as hand held non-explosive firearms are concerned, is a myth...But I'll be damned if anybody on here will argue against the 25mm cannon, m203, or M72 law, as not having,"knock down power"
:what:...Knock down power is as simple concept, the amount of kinetic energy a moving object(or objects) has to impart to a stationary object in order to move(or topple) the stationary object. No I can't give a formula, so don't ask
...U.S.SFC_RET
New member
K91wt I will try without trying to get everyone fired up about it. Especially DNS.
In my segment of the service it was common to see soldiers on the firing line have a stoppage. The Safety NCO would go over and unjam the weapon. More often than not I would ask these soldiers later on if they knew how to clear a malfunction in that rifle. and most would say no. I would teach them how to conduct an Immediate action to clear a Jam or Stoppage in that M16. If that didn't work then Remedial action which is to continue. Clearing a weapon for someone else does not give confidence to that person for that weapon. Firearms will sometimes fail to feed into the chamber. Variables that cause malfunctions in M16s. I am not sure about AR15s because I don't own an AR15 but an M16 has a small hole at the end of the buttstock that hole is there for a reason if that hole is dirty it could cause a short recoil cycle. a fouled gas tube can cause a short recoil cycle (a failure of a round to extract). The bolt itself has ring gaps that must be staggered from each other. Dirty weapon.
Simple things to teach when you have a stoppage
1. Slap up on the base of the magazine
2. Pull the charging handle to the rear
3. Observe the chamber for an Ejection of the Round
4. Release the charging handle
5. Tap the forward assist
I helped People understand what they had in their hands and how to correct it. Not just shoot it. This in turn with enough training would give them more confidence with their weapon in case of failure.
Always taught before the Range and at the Range
Marksmanship fundamentals
1. Establish a steady position
2. Aim
3. Breathing control
4. Trigger Squeeze
Holding to the shoulder
Non firing hand grip always does the main job of holding the weapon to the shoulder and not the shooting hand. The shoting hand only holds the weapon in place to the shoulder.
Stock Weld
Stock Weld is when the shooter gains a natural line of sight with the weapon by placing the cheek to the stock. When practiced enough this comes about naturally and you should achieve about the same eye relief in relation to the gun sights every time.
Trigger Squeeze
Trigger Squeeze is what it says it is (Squeeze) It should come as a surprize. Don't pull the trigger. Don't jerk the trigger.
Standing Shooting
Standing Shooting can be done. Learn to hold the Weapon steady on target (well it won't be steady) It will be weavy, time the shot when the the bead gets to the center. I know it contradicts trigger squeeze (flame me)
Having a problem with your blood pulsing? Throwing off your aim? use breathing control breath out and in acouple of timea and breath out a half breath. Aim, Squeeze off.
Bullets Drop essentially the same speed from your hand as from a rifle. It helps to understand when ranging shots.
Shooting skills are acquired not taught in a classroom, Confidence with a weapon is sometimes not learned at all.
In my segment of the service it was common to see soldiers on the firing line have a stoppage. The Safety NCO would go over and unjam the weapon. More often than not I would ask these soldiers later on if they knew how to clear a malfunction in that rifle. and most would say no. I would teach them how to conduct an Immediate action to clear a Jam or Stoppage in that M16. If that didn't work then Remedial action which is to continue. Clearing a weapon for someone else does not give confidence to that person for that weapon. Firearms will sometimes fail to feed into the chamber. Variables that cause malfunctions in M16s. I am not sure about AR15s because I don't own an AR15 but an M16 has a small hole at the end of the buttstock that hole is there for a reason if that hole is dirty it could cause a short recoil cycle. a fouled gas tube can cause a short recoil cycle (a failure of a round to extract). The bolt itself has ring gaps that must be staggered from each other. Dirty weapon.
Simple things to teach when you have a stoppage
1. Slap up on the base of the magazine
2. Pull the charging handle to the rear
3. Observe the chamber for an Ejection of the Round
4. Release the charging handle
5. Tap the forward assist
I helped People understand what they had in their hands and how to correct it. Not just shoot it. This in turn with enough training would give them more confidence with their weapon in case of failure.
Always taught before the Range and at the Range
Marksmanship fundamentals
1. Establish a steady position
2. Aim
3. Breathing control
4. Trigger Squeeze
Holding to the shoulder
Non firing hand grip always does the main job of holding the weapon to the shoulder and not the shooting hand. The shoting hand only holds the weapon in place to the shoulder.
Stock Weld
Stock Weld is when the shooter gains a natural line of sight with the weapon by placing the cheek to the stock. When practiced enough this comes about naturally and you should achieve about the same eye relief in relation to the gun sights every time.
Trigger Squeeze
Trigger Squeeze is what it says it is (Squeeze) It should come as a surprize. Don't pull the trigger. Don't jerk the trigger.
Standing Shooting
Standing Shooting can be done. Learn to hold the Weapon steady on target (well it won't be steady) It will be weavy, time the shot when the the bead gets to the center. I know it contradicts trigger squeeze (flame me)
Having a problem with your blood pulsing? Throwing off your aim? use breathing control breath out and in acouple of timea and breath out a half breath. Aim, Squeeze off.
Bullets Drop essentially the same speed from your hand as from a rifle. It helps to understand when ranging shots.
Shooting skills are acquired not taught in a classroom, Confidence with a weapon is sometimes not learned at all.
Breathing control...hmmm... I think the most important fact to teach a slodier about breathing control....
Is to remember to breathe!!! When bullets are flying, it's actually more common that a shooter will forget to breathe and end up holding his(her) breath.
That being said... U.S.SFC_RET ... think about what you are typing before you type it, a lot of what you are typing is vague and misleading. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, and hoping you know what you mean, but simply aren't clearly typing it.
I normally don't like nitpicking someone's post, but I think you will find that many of us (myself included) will start disecting your posts if you don't manage to be a little more concise.
Doc
Is to remember to breathe!!! When bullets are flying, it's actually more common that a shooter will forget to breathe and end up holding his(her) breath.
That being said... U.S.SFC_RET ... think about what you are typing before you type it, a lot of what you are typing is vague and misleading. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, and hoping you know what you mean, but simply aren't clearly typing it.
I normally don't like nitpicking someone's post, but I think you will find that many of us (myself included) will start disecting your posts if you don't manage to be a little more concise.
Doc
Double Naught Spy
New member
U.S.SFC_RET, did you look up the 1911 information?
What is the specific model "the military" has developed to shoot around corners. You seemed pretty surprised by such a development, calling it stranger than fiction but true. As I noted, such things have been around for more than 6 decades. So since you are on the cutting edge of what the military has developed, please tell us about it.
What is the specific model "the military" has developed to shoot around corners. You seemed pretty surprised by such a development, calling it stranger than fiction but true. As I noted, such things have been around for more than 6 decades. So since you are on the cutting edge of what the military has developed, please tell us about it.
The mentioned things above and below are very very basic ways of the military. I was a ground pounder for 4 years, Army Infantry, and when I would have a rare misfire, I would do the above in about 3 seconds with no thinking involved.
The good thing about the military is that you can literally shoot thousands of rounds to improve. It is up to you to be a great shooter, as you have all the time and rounds. The bad thing about the military is that you are rarely challenged with shooting. Pop up targets at 50-100-200-300 yards. It doesn't matter if you can clear your own malfunction or not, this type of training will be monotonous after time.
I will say that in Korea, the training was top-notch, best I have ever seen. Move and shoot as teams/squads/platoons, pop up targets, Bradleys firing over top of us, support squads shooting over our heads.....live gernades thrown in trenches, C-4 blowing up everywhere.....If I was to speak of the military's training, this is what I would bring up, because the Army didn't teach me how to shoot (fundamentally) one bit.
Blackwater OPS
New member
+1 Twycross
I remember SPORTS, in fact everything you said seems to have been copied directly from FM 3-22.9. Execept for,
I remember SPORTS, in fact everything you said seems to have been copied directly from FM 3-22.9. Execept for,
Which I cannot make any sense of. Why would you do this in a thread you started which was about headshots vs. centermass? If you are trying to establish your credentials as a firearms instructor this is not the way to go about, IMO.
SFC_RET,
The things you have described are all part of Basic Rifle Marksmanship and are taught to all Soldiers during BCT. You are right, SPORTS and the four fundamentals of marksmanship are things that need constant reinforcement - particularly in units that only fire qualification once or twice a year. I also agree with you that making a Soldier correct a malfunction him/herself vice the line safety doing it builds his/her self-confidence when dealing with the weapon.
The "hole in the buttstock" you refer to is a drain hole in the buttstock screw, nothing more. I have seen M16A1/A2's run perfectly fine in many climactic conditions with the drain hole blocked by dirt, mud, sand and snow. It's blockage will not cause a short recoil. Fouled gas tubes - I've never seen that in 20 years of service. I've seen bent, dented and misaligned gas tubes that caused a rifle to short stroke but never a "fouled gas tube" in an unsupressed service rifle.
A lot of what you're writing is spot-on for a novice shooter unfamiliar with the AR system. But you undercut your teaching points with vague comments about your experience and half-factual/unfactual statements (particularly in reference to the M1911A1.)
I'm just a dumb ole 11B. I don't claim to be the best or the end-all, be-all of marksmen. That's why I come to boards like this, because there are some posters that are quite knowledgeable about shooting. I'm all about learning new TTP's to pass on to my hooahs. If I can add to a discussion and help another shooter out, so much the better. It's also why I take classes from civilian shooting schools when I'm stateside or not deployed. I've even got a class laid on for when I'm on block leave in JAN 06.
As a fellow Noncommissioned Officer, I thank you for your loyal service to the nation.
Mike
The things you have described are all part of Basic Rifle Marksmanship and are taught to all Soldiers during BCT. You are right, SPORTS and the four fundamentals of marksmanship are things that need constant reinforcement - particularly in units that only fire qualification once or twice a year. I also agree with you that making a Soldier correct a malfunction him/herself vice the line safety doing it builds his/her self-confidence when dealing with the weapon.
The "hole in the buttstock" you refer to is a drain hole in the buttstock screw, nothing more. I have seen M16A1/A2's run perfectly fine in many climactic conditions with the drain hole blocked by dirt, mud, sand and snow. It's blockage will not cause a short recoil. Fouled gas tubes - I've never seen that in 20 years of service. I've seen bent, dented and misaligned gas tubes that caused a rifle to short stroke but never a "fouled gas tube" in an unsupressed service rifle.
A lot of what you're writing is spot-on for a novice shooter unfamiliar with the AR system. But you undercut your teaching points with vague comments about your experience and half-factual/unfactual statements (particularly in reference to the M1911A1.)
I'm just a dumb ole 11B. I don't claim to be the best or the end-all, be-all of marksmen. That's why I come to boards like this, because there are some posters that are quite knowledgeable about shooting. I'm all about learning new TTP's to pass on to my hooahs. If I can add to a discussion and help another shooter out, so much the better. It's also why I take classes from civilian shooting schools when I'm stateside or not deployed. I've even got a class laid on for when I'm on block leave in JAN 06.
As a fellow Noncommissioned Officer, I thank you for your loyal service to the nation.
Mike
How bout this....
I don't remember seeing it in the thread although I mayhave missed it, but, I will shoot until the threat is stopped. I don't care if I hit him twice in the hand, once in the arm, once in the foot, and once in the ass.... I will shoot until the threat is stopped no matter where I hit him! If the threat stops, then I've done ok for myself.
I don't remember seeing it in the thread although I mayhave missed it, but, I will shoot until the threat is stopped. I don't care if I hit him twice in the hand, once in the arm, once in the foot, and once in the ass.... I will shoot until the threat is stopped no matter where I hit him! If the threat stops, then I've done ok for myself.
Double Naught Spy
New member
U.S.SFC_RET said,
Lebben-B's response...
Okay, I missed this the first time through. Thank you Lebben-B for catching it.
The early versions didn't have the drain and they worked fine. The only way that hole being clogged is going to be associated with a malfunction if if the buffer tube has filled with water and somebody fires the gun before the water has drained out of the buffer tube.
Note that the Army Study Guide doesn't even attribute any problems to the litle hole.
It is rather strange that when the M16 is shouldered, that little hole can be effectively blocked or clogged by placement against the shoulder. If keeping hole open was necessary for the correct functioning of the weapon during normal conditions (not having been submerged), why would it be located in a place that would result in it being blocked during normal use and hence causing the gun to malfunction? Given all of the modifications to the M16 after it was adopted, no doubt that had the little hole been a problem for operation, it would have been changed long ago.
There is no documented or discussed shortstroking problem with the drain hole. I am not sure how such a notion would have come about to be passed on to others as a fact as noted above, but it is frightening when such wrong information is passed on as fact by those who justify such matters not with facts, but credentials. Credentials do no support or refute anything about a firearm's operation.
Lebben-B's response...
Okay, I missed this the first time through. Thank you Lebben-B for catching it.
The early versions didn't have the drain and they worked fine. The only way that hole being clogged is going to be associated with a malfunction if if the buffer tube has filled with water and somebody fires the gun before the water has drained out of the buffer tube.
Note that the Army Study Guide doesn't even attribute any problems to the litle hole.
It is rather strange that when the M16 is shouldered, that little hole can be effectively blocked or clogged by placement against the shoulder. If keeping hole open was necessary for the correct functioning of the weapon during normal conditions (not having been submerged), why would it be located in a place that would result in it being blocked during normal use and hence causing the gun to malfunction? Given all of the modifications to the M16 after it was adopted, no doubt that had the little hole been a problem for operation, it would have been changed long ago.
There is no documented or discussed shortstroking problem with the drain hole. I am not sure how such a notion would have come about to be passed on to others as a fact as noted above, but it is frightening when such wrong information is passed on as fact by those who justify such matters not with facts, but credentials. Credentials do no support or refute anything about a firearm's operation.
U.S.SFC_RET
New member
DNS have you ever served in the military? Obviously you are the Expert in this field of discussion so lets hear it from you. Why don't you train me on the expert use of a firearm for a change instead of digging SH!t off the internet. What are your Credentials besides picking people apart. So you probably have a coupla dozen firearms. Pistols, rifles and a lot of internet knowledge. How about practical knowledge? Got any of that. Everyone is the Expert on the internet especially you. I don't mind if you take me apart but contribute to this thread in doing so. The internet is a tool but it turns people like you into an internet professor with no practical, hands on knowledge to share on this board. You can state facts all day long. You can pick me apart all day long but it doesn't add a positive thing to this thread go take a debate class instead.:barf:
U.S.SFC_RET - You claim that DNS should contribute to this thread. But what exactly is this thread about? You started it by posting a lot of basic info, much of it incorrect. DNS, along with others, has dismantled your incorrect claims. Why are you complaining? After all, this thread really is about you.
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