Are you responsible [Part 2a]

How much risk to others is acceptable?

  • My life and the lives of those I love are more important to me than the lives of strangers [shoot]

    Votes: 42 85.7%
  • It would be immoral to risk the lives of others to save myself or those I love [don't shoot]

    Votes: 7 14.3%

  • Total voters
    49
Well, shoot, I had a flip response to WildAlaska's silly scenario all prepared, but then read fastbolt's thoughtful and sober response. Killjoy. :p

From this post, sir, you don't come across like one of the good guys. No, sir, you come across like one of the excellent guys.

God bless, all.

Bob James
 
loved one are being attacked by an assailant who has shown beyond a doubt that Intent, Opportunity and Ability to cause grievous harm or death.

are being attacked is exigent circumstances and while I certainly hope and pray that no innocents are struck, I would act without regard to my enviroment and take the shot.

Your poll choices are poorly worded and full of bias, so I could not vote. I would shoot, but for the reason you stated!
 
Vanya said:
WildtoughonehuhAlaska said:
Scenario: Bad guy has your wife with a knife at her throat and tells you he will slit it if you dont fire into the crowd of schoolchildren. You have no shot at attacker.
The wife gets a say in this, too. If she wants you to fire at the schoolchildren, you probably married the wrong person.

If she wants you to fire at the schoolchildren, you married the wrong person.

There, I fixed it for you. ;)

My first concern is going to be the people I love, in any case. However, under the law you *cannot* shoot an innocent third party even if somebody has a gun to your head or the head of somebody you love and threatens to kill you if you don't. You can shoot *them* to stop them, but you cannot shoot a third party who is not threatening you or anybody else just to stop the perpetrator from killing you or somebody you love.

I don't mistake "legal" for "right"; something can be the law and not be right. (Although that's rare in this country, fortunately.) In this case, however, I think that the law is right. There really are things that you simply can't do, even to save your own life or that of another innocent person. This would be one of those things.

Around the time we got engaged, my now husband and I had one of... those... conversations -- about the ticking bomb scenario and torture. :/ Nobody here who has been paying attention will be surprised to know that I don't believe that there is any circumstance in which torture is justified. Even when the person whom you are torturing (or threatening to torture) is a complete loss as a human being, as would be a person who refused to tell you where a ticking nuclear bomb was located, I don't believe that it is possible to torture that person and not loose or risk losing your own humanity. (I'd say "soul", but not everybody here is a believer in God.) My husband wasn't sure of this, and said so.

One of the more interesting debates on that issue was between U.S. conservative movement founder/icon William F. Buckley and liberal civil rights defender/eminence Alan Dershowitz in 2002. Dershowitz supported (supports?) requiring a warrant in "ticking bomb" scenarios, but allowing torture. Buckley recognizes that he would support torture in extreme specific cases, but opposes making an exemption to the laws forbidding torture on the grounds that, for the spiritual health of the country, anybody contemplating torture should know that they were operating in violation of the law and could not seek its protection.

Unfortunately my position wasn't represented. :/ I wish somebody had been present to do so. It would have taken a brilliant man or woman to match Buckley and Dershowitz, but I can think of a few who could do it. (Not widely known names, yet anyway.)
 
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De nada, Mr James.

Like I said, though, I don't presume to have the answers for anyone else.

Matters such as this ought to be horrific by nature to rational human beings.

They're deserving of some careful, sober and contemplative thought before we arm ourselves and consider ourselves prepared to face the potential eventuality of taking a human life.

I spent shy of 3 decades in LE and have pursued an interest and involvement in the martial arts for just shy of 4 decades, so I've had opportunity to give these matters some thought. Being a parent, and now a grand parent, lends another perspective, as well.
 
If the choice presented is unacceptable, take the third option! :rolleyes:

My family dying and taking a shot that I believe has a greater chance of hitting an innocent than the attacker are both poor options. Given the scenario (only poor options available, and the realization of the choice), I would not want to fire. In real life, I don't know what I would do. The intricacies of the real world complicate things...

On the other hand, the complex world provides more choices! :) Certain injury of loved ones/self versus probable injury of innocents are not the only options. This is why a firearm isn't your only weapon. If I cannot fire, I'm going to plan B (or C or D or E etc...) I usually carry several things that could be used as weapons, if need be. I also bring me along quite frequently. Sure, my chances of protecting a loved one are not as good as using a firearm, in the hypothetical, but the risk of harming an innocent is also lower. I'll take the 30% chance of success and 10% risk to innocents over the 80% chance of success and 80% risk to innocents or the 0% chance of success. It's still a poor option, but I think it is better than the others.

This is T&T, how can we exclude options other than "all or nothing with a firearm?"
 
Figure of speech, I presume...

Don't presume, I usually say what I mean and don't mince words, and I don't have to defend myself to anyone but me. HOWEVER...

OK, I edited it so all you PC-types won't get your panties in a bunch. In this fantasy scene, I will shoot and continue to shoot until I'm SURE he can no longer harm my wife, family, or me. This is my wife and family. Compared to that nothing, and I DO mean NOTHING else matters. If I thought less, then she married the wrong guy. We shoot to stop...fine, but dead is a SURE stop. Let's at least be honest with ourselves and not hypocritical. One of you stand up and state, in public, that you'd do less for your family...

I don't have a blood lust, all you psychologists out there, just a survival lust.
 
Matters such as this ought to be horrific by nature to rational human beings.
They're deserving of some careful, sober and contemplative thought before we arm ourselves and consider ourselves prepared to face the potential eventuality of taking a human life.

Fastbolt, Who says they aren't? The thought of accidentally causing harm to an innocent is up there right below allowing my family to be harmed.

Not only does it deserve careful thought and contemplation but also as much training and education as one can afford.
 
I'll take the 30% chance of success and 10% risk to innocents over the 80% chance of success and 80% risk to innocents or the 0% chance of success. It's still a poor option, but I think it is better than the others.

The OP asked that the numbers not be changed. He stated that the firing was the only option that could prevent death or serious injury to your family.......
The choice not to fire will most likely result in the grievous injury or death of yourself or a loved one
........Under most conditions the gun is the last resort anyway. Once you get to it your other plans have probably failed. Once you get to it you will likely have no time or desire to rationally calculate statistics.
 
^+1. You don't want to use it, thats the last resort. No one in there right mind wants to hurt another person (and if you do seek help). There would have to be NO other options than for me to go to for the sidearm. And Field of Fire is very important.
 
I usually say what I mean and don't mince words, and I don't have to defend myself to anyone but me.
Maybe, maybe not. You might have to defend yourself against criminal and/or civil charges, and anything that may pertain to mens rea that may be readily discovered among postings could become important if, for example, any question is raised regarding whether excessive force had been used.
 
I don't have a blood lust, all you psychologists out there, just a survival lust.

So does that means that you would rip the bread out of the hands of a starving baby to feed your self?:eek:;)

This thread isnt about guns or physically training qua training to use a gun....

Its about a mindset. Not to use that term like the ramboninja trainers use it, but to make one think about the basic question:

How far are you willing to go to protect yourself and/or your lived ones?

It goes beyond the fantasies of confronting street punks.

WildwouldyoulaydownyourownlifeforyourfellowmanAlaska ™
 
Wildalaska's scenario's are extravagant and unlikely but he makes a very good point. The "fantasies" I call training ( about cronfronting street thugs as Wild said) are good to think about, but most likely in real life its going to be MUCH different. Whatever your preconceptions were of how it would go down will most likely be completley off. Expect the unexpected is the message I am getting from him and I think it's a good one.
 
Fastbolt, Who says they aren't? The thought of accidentally causing harm to an innocent is up there right below allowing my family to be harmed.

Not only does it deserve careful thought and contemplation but also as much training and education as one can afford.

You're right. ;)

If we're judged by the words we use, some folks might be surprised (or not) if they found that others formed certain impressions about their potential willingness to use violence at the expense of other innocent persons.

Now, perhaps this isn't exclusively how things will actually develop in a civil trial setting, since more than 90% of our communication is non-verbal (meaning body language, betraying micro-expressions and other physical indicators of thought and state of mind, etc). People will often create judgments about others based upon non-verbal communication without even realizing it.

Language and commentary used in public online forums, such as this one, for example, can be located and subpoenaed to try and create a way to impeach statements made elsewhere, such as in court, when under oath, or just to create an impression that might be seen as being more favorable to the plaintiff's side of a civil case and perhaps used for advantage by the plaintiff in such a proceeding.

I am NOT an attorney, however, and don't try to pretend to be able to offer legal advice. Not at all.

Having testified in court my fair share of times for my LE career, having testified in federal court as a witness in a civil rights trial and having known many attorneys who practiced law for civil matters, I learned it's prudent to avoid making glib comments or saying things without thinking about them first.

Words mean things. Our bodies speak volumes without our awareness when it comes to non-verbal communication, too.

There are an increasing number of outstanding, and very interesting, classes being given to our LE community on interrogation techniques and non-verbal communication. A lot of cops become qualified as expert witnesses in local courts during their careers. Some of them decide to go to work as PI's upon retirement to supplement their incomes. Some of them don't mind taking money to use their talents and experience for plaintiff's attorneys. I've known some of them.

A word to the wise is sometimes not needed. A word to the unwise is sometimes not heeded. ;)

The 5 words nobody ever wants to hear? "Will the defendant please rise."

Just my thoughts, folks.
 
As a psychologist out here, who has read the jury simulation literature and relevant legal literature - ranting about "dead" will make a poor impression on the jury if your shoot is ambiguous.

As we said before, the jury probably won't have gun choir folk on it. Just regular old folk and when they see innocent Grandma on the ground and you have to explain the extra hole from the stray round - making sure a guy already shot is dead - won't fly.

You need to survive the trial also. So keeping your big yap shut is part of that.
 
sakeneko said:
I don't mistake "legal" for "right"; something can be the law and not be right. (Although that's rare in this country, fortunately.) In this case, however, I think that the law is right. There really are things that you simply can't do, even to save your own life or that of another innocent person. This would be one of those things.
Well said.

TylerD45ACP said:
Expect the unexpected is the message I am getting from him and I think it's a good one.
I think his larger message has to do with the fact that, if you're an ethical person, not every problem can be solved with a gun, or with any other weapon, for that matter...
 
...if you're an ethical person, not every problem can be solved with a gun, or with any other weapon, for that matter...

I'd go further than the above. The application of force is almost NEVER the solution to a problem. If force is required, many, many things have already gone terribly wrong.


All, once again, thank you for offering your insights to this discussion, it is very much appreciated.

VR

Matt
 
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Yes I also agree with you. Not every problem can be solved with a firearm and the use of one should be avoided until absolutley necessary.
 
.22lr said:
I'd go further than the above. The application of force is almost NEVER the solution to a problem. If force is required, many, many things have already gone terribly wrong.
How right you are. :)

But I'm sure you've noticed that many people who post here don't believe that deadly force is always the absolute last resort. The discussions you've started on this topic are a useful antidote to that way of thinking, and I thank you for that.
 
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