Are you responsible? [Part 1]

[threegun]

Answering it would give it the credibility it doesnt deserve

Yeah ok

 

[markj]

What if, you are at band camp........

Some of this stuff is unrealistic in the scenarios presented.

In a SD incident you will have no time to think, you must react, this is why training is available. Trust me, when someone pulls a gun and starts shooting at you, the mind is mulling this action over, your body better move to cover or you may not be here it has happened to me just in this way. Had no time to think but I did react and was not shot that time. I can honestly say I slid under a truck and came out the other side he was empty by that time and ran off.

Get some training.

 

[threegun]

Trust me, when someone pulls a gun and starts shooting at you, the mind is mulling this action over, your body better move to cover or you may not be here

I've been training to do so while returning fire. Shooting while running for cover. The question here is would you fire if behind the bad guy were good guys?

 

[.22lr]

A continuation with a shift in focus

All,
I'd like to continue this discussion while adding a new thread "Are you responsible [Part 2a]" which will explore a different aspect of responsibility as it relates to self defense.

Thank you,

~Matt

 

[smith357]

I am fully responsible for every bullet that leaves the barrel of my firearm.

 

[Retired15T]

It's pretty obvious that there are those among the thread participants who will make excuses to try and cloud this very simple scenario and what their actions would or would not be. I am responsible for the bullet(s) that leave my weapon.

For me, it's so simple because:

1. It would have to be a clear cut situation of somebody is about to die at the hands of the BG and I am the ONLY one there who can help.
2. I've a lot of weapons training behind me.
3. I've been in this situation and know that the first 10-15 seconds of this playing out is going to be dictated by either your training or your belief in movies.
4. I would make the greatest effort to convince the BG I am harmless and "wowed" by his/her expression of violence. If there were innocents behind him and I knew the shot was risky, I wouldn't take the shot. Even if it cost me my life. However, if the BG were close enough and I was sure of my ability to hit him and only him, then I would take the shot. If my shot went through the BG and hit an innocent, I would do everything in my power to help that individual there on the scene and after wards.

I would trust in the common sense of the people from the community in which I live to exonerate me of any criminal or unreasonable financial obligations. If I were NOT in my home town, I wouldn't be so quick to act. I would still take the shot if the situation allowed a great chance of only the BG being injured.
Not only should a CCW person be cognizant of their surroundings, their abilities and familiar with the laws that govern your actions, the individual would be best served by understanding the "climate" in which they are doing so.

 

[Wildalaska]

I've been training to do so while returning fire. Shooting while running for cover.

Shooting while running for cover?

WildpleasedontgotothesamemallasmeAlaska ™

 

[TylerD45ACP]

Regardless, you are responsible for every round that leaves the barrel of your firearm. That is the way I personally feel.

 

[Sefner]

I'd point out, though, that this wasn't actually a case of a justified self-defense shooting:

That is indeed true. I know it's not justified, and when the carjacker was indicted (the shooter wasn't charged until a few weeks after the carjacker) I thought that the shooter should also face charges because the criminal was fleeing. I just wanted to point out a story in which something close to this happened and what the result was.

 

[TylerD45ACP]

By all means I'm interested in everything. I can't say exactly what Id do for so many situations. If I knew I had to fire or I would be killed but someone might be hurt, I would still fire because my life comes first, self preservation is very powerful and instinctive. Even if I was in trouble I would take responsiblity for my bullets that caused harm because I fired them.

 

[markj]

I've been training to do so while returning fire. Shooting while running for cover. The question here is would you fire if behind the bad guy were good guys?

I would only fire if I couldnt get away or get behind something else. Shooting is last resort, if I do shoot I doubt I will check to see what is behind said bad guy. Isnt deer hunting so no time to think, only to react.

Shoot while taking cover? Hits will decline on BG leaving lead to land where and in whom?

 

[jhenry]

If I am forced to fire in order to protect life and limb, then the damage is the responsibility of the one who forced my hand. "but for" his/her actions, nothing at all would have happened. If on the other hand, I acted negligently, even if forced to fire, I own my negligence.

I have a little issue with responsibility, and I prefer to place it where it belongs. Not where the pockets are deepest. I realize many view this as antiquated, or living in fantasy, but that is how I was raised. I assure you it is not fantasy, and really is how I conduct myself. I hold myself responsible for my actions, and I fully expect the same from others.

This is why we have the Felony Murder statute for instance, and why in many jurisdictions people are free from civil liability in the case of a justified shooting. For the purpose of placing the responsibility where it belongs.

If I am forced to fire and one lands in some poor soles foot I am negligent automatically? Nonsense. Automatically on the hook for a situation not of my choosing? Nope. I have to purchase everything my bullet hits no matter what? Not on your life. The guy who put me in a position to act or die is though.

If I shoot and act with reckless disregard, well then sue me. I deserve it at that point.

 

[okgunman]

So long as the third-party didn't act in a way that otherwise they would not have been hurt (Like running towards the line of fire), I take full responsibility for my actions.

 

[threegun]

Shooting while running for cover?

WildpleasedontgotothesamemallasmeAlaska

Shoot while taking cover? Hits will decline on BG leaving lead to land where and in whom?

Depends on the distance. Very good combat hits are common even while running at distances of up to 7 yards (for my ability right now). Of course as the distances increase hit rates and speed between shots decrease but so does hit rate for the bad guy. I've been working on a version of the fluid threat response taught by Sweat'n'Bullets. It allows one to respond with lead while satisfying the bodies natural desire to flee danger. Movement equals safety and returning fire equal safety. Both done together can mean the difference between life and death.

Stand and deliver while much more precise is a good way to get dead when even or behind in the reactionary curve.

 

[Wildalaska]

Very good combat hits are common even while running at distances of up to 7 yards (for my ability right now). Of course as the distances increase hit rates and speed between shots decrease but so does hit rate for the bad guy. I've been working on a version of the fluid threat response taught by Sweat'n'Bullets. It allows one to respond with lead while satisfying the bodies natural desire to flee danger. Movement equals safety and returning fire equal safety. Both done together can mean the difference between life and death.

If you run and fire and hit an innocent you will, without any question, get indicted for, at a minimum a negligent assault/homicide.

No ifs and or buts. You might not be convicted, but some bottom feeding shyst...Oh no wait, hes defending you...so its some champion of the rights of the armed citizen..... is gonna be getting all of your cash to defend you

Wildandanyonewhotrainsfolkstodothatare...wellwordsfailmeatthatstupidityAlaska ™

 

[threegun]

If you run and fire and hit an innocent you will, without any question, get indicted for, at a minimum a negligent assault/homicide.

And you will be dead since you "chose" not to shoot. Or you will likely be dead if you stand and deliver. I would rather use the tactics that I have train with as needed to survive an imminent mortal encounter. I can't worry about legalities when being shot at provided I am the victim.

Worry before the shots start flying......fight for my life with the best tool in my box for the situation once they do.

You don't get charged with Homicide for someone accidentally hit by a stray bullet while you are in the process of defending yourself. The worst that could be brought against you is manslaughter and I find it hard to believe that a jury would indict given all the details. If you are running and shooting you are going to die if you don't in this system....hence the need to run and shoot.

 

[threegun]

Wildandanyonewhotrainsfolkstodothatare...wellwordsfailmeatthatstupidityAlaska

You Pooh Pooh this system and I have no doubt that you don't have a clue how to fully defend yourself with a handgun.

I doubted it until I tried it. Old dogs new tricks I guess.

I can only thank Sweat'N'Bullets for sharing it with me.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Some long time members are starting to get personal. To avoid consequences, I think we are done. Happens when a thread goes on too long and positions harden. Thanks for the mostly excellent discussion, even from the cranky people.

Closed.