Are we getting our monies worth?

[Dashunde]

A finely crafted, balanced piece of machinery that Engineers spent countless hours and perhaps millions of dollars designing

That’s how I recently read someone describe a pistol - a Glock no less.
It got me thinking about value, what we're really getting for our firearm dollars compared to other things that cost approximately the same, have far greater material usage and engineering requirements, and possibly sell in FEWER numbers than Glocks.

I spent the last few peaceful xmas morning hours researching which power washer and 60 gallon air compressor I'm going to buy myself for xmas when the dust settles...
My 3200psi/2.8gph power washer with a Honda GX-200 motor and a Triplex brass pump with ceramic pistons mounted on a steel frame and pnumatic tires will cost me about $550 - Same price as a Glock, yet it has hundreds of truly precise parts in both the engine and the pump.

The air compressor, its just shy of $500, lots of steel, metal work and welding in that 60 gallon tank, cast iron twin cylinder pump plus its internals, 4hp electric motor, regulator, etc..
Again, far more for your money.

Of course sales/production volume plays a role here, but I know several more people with multiples of Glocks & Guns than I do with pressure washers and air compressors.
They may own one or the other, not both, but they do own 3-9 guns of various makes.

My guess... we're not really getting our monies worth from firearms, but I'll bet the insurance companies and lawyers are.

 

[Willie D]

If you could buy Glocks from China you'd probably be paying less.

 

[Sure shot wv]

I think this is a really tough discussion to get into. obviously there are the basics. to me, things like fit, finish, reliability etc. at a basic level. take glock for instance at that level I personally feel springfield blows them out of the water. better finish MUCH better reliability and better fit to my hand. but that is just my personal view and opinion on them. At some point tho craftsmanship comes into play. glocks and springfields are produced on an assembly line with most parts being made by a machine in an automated process, then just assembled by people. now take a Wilson combat for example where you have one person working on that firearm hand fitting and finishing it through the whole process. obviously the price goes up but think about all the time that person has into building it. that person is gonna be someone at the top of the field. someone with experience and knowledge. A true artist or craftsman per say. I look at firearms kinda like looking at automobiles. sure anyone can buy a nice Camaro, or a nicely restored Camaro at a good price. but for a truly hand built car that price goes way up, but so does the quality.

I like to use me as an example. I feel I am pretty much at the top of my game in the auto field. I have a lot of experience, knowledge, and some of the best training available. I know through personal experience and prior builds that my work absolutely speaks for itself and is of utmost quality. So, in general when I do cars I require a higher price for my work. sure anyone could assemble a car or firearm but for true craftsmanship that's a talent learned over years and years of hard work. and it rightly should require a higher price.

Some things aren't for everybody though. again ill use me as an example. Im building a foxbody mustang at the moment. theres tons of beautiful foxbodies you could buy 10k. mine however, when completed I probably would consider selling for under 40-50k.(depending on how this 347 turns out lol) Its not the actual prices of the parts that went into the build its all the time from the top notch builder.

now im not to sure on firearm and gunsmithing rates but ill use myself as an example again. for custom builds I usually run about 100 dollars an hour or so depending on what im doing. this mustang I have just over 100 hours so far on the interior. that's say 10k in just my time. not counting any part prices. if someones handbuilding a 1911 and has 120 hours on it at 50 dollars an hour that's 6k. that's a lot of money.

overall even though your spending more upfront I feel I get a better value buying something generally "higher end". I know that someone put there hard work and heart into making it. I don't feel you can get that with assembly line production. yes you can get some beautiful and nice products but there in a different league.

I will say I could see that value per price comparison dropping in the future in the firearm world. I believe theres gonna be to much of a political hand in it. whether its just a higher tax or more paperwork/money/time to aquire an item. but for now I think it is pretty reasonable. we get a decent product for the price MOST of the time.

I apologize for the typographical errors and poor English lol. that is the longest reply ive ever typed haha. my brain is going in way to many directions at the moment!

 

[4runnerman]

I guess at my age I look at things different. Company A builds a pistol by machine,Company B builds a pistol by hand. We have determined that A & B are no better nor worse than each other. Company A wants $500.00 for their pistol,Company B wants $1500.00. In my mind company B is going to be filing bankruptcy in due time. I used to work for a guy in the lawn care business part time. When one of his machines went down,I would get this story about how much it cost's him and such. My reply to him was- None of my concern,This is your business and I am just working for you.Your operating cost's mean nothing to me. Now hand crafting a pistol or rifle for that matter is a time consuming precise job, But as I said-That is not my concern nor my problem. I believe in hard work and craftsmanship ,but to think I am going to pay over inflated cost's for it,when it is no better than machine made is crazy. I have learned in 52 years of walking this earth,that sentimental value ( especially yours) means nothing to me. I do not get attached to inanimate objects that can be replaced. I am glad you put your heart into it and did a awesome,great job, but that was your choice.

Now don't get me wrong. I am glad their are people out there that do this kind of labor, I am just not the guy that will pay extra for it. And I also am sure they have no problem finding people that will.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

...have determined that A & B are no better nor worse than each other. Company A wants $500.00 for their pistol, Company B wants $1500.00. In my mind company B is going to be filing bankruptcy in due time.

Must be why the high-dollar 1911 builders are backed up 8-24 months on orders...

There's room in the market for a premium product. Not everyone wants a $500 pistol anymore than everyone only wants a fast food hamburger for dinner.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

Keep in mind all the licensing, legal limitations, and liability involved with selling guns in the US.

If you could order a Glock off of Amazon and bypass your local shop it would be a lot cheaper also. SUre you can order from buds, but you are still stuck with the FFL AND buds has to have an FFL and keep a ton of documentation also.

Not all of the difference, but it isn't insignificant either.

 

[HiBC]

I can't think of the name of the tax right now,but there is a 10 or 15 % tax on guns and other sporting goods that sportsmen called for in the early 1900,s to fund wildlife resources.

Then add in 30 some % corporate income tax,FICA,Worknam's comp,etc

And,since the Brady Bunch,etc,mount a full time campaign to outlaw handguns,I suspect a certain amount of the company budget goes to pushing back,which supports our RTKBA.

Then there is a legal team.Every time a quick draw bozo shoots himself,or a robber gets shot,or a kid finds a gun under the mattress and kills his sister,the lawsuits start

It costs big bucks to build the plastic injection molds to make plastic guns,and,relative to making other consumer products,volume is low.

It takes more skill to build a good handgun than to flip burgers,so there will be a good pay and benefit program.Health care,retirement,etc.

I suspect if there was enough "gouging" going on,excessive profit....

In other words,if a Glock equivalent could be made ,with a good profit,for $300,Go for it!You will sell a lot of them.

Competition moderates profit.Profit is a good thing.

In the end,what determines "is it worth it?" is the person who pulls out the wallet and says "I'll take it!"

We have the Freedom to say"No,I do not think so"

Now,it would be Tyranny if we were required by the government to purchase.....

 

[Sevens]

I think it's an easy, EASY, simple answer. Seriously, quick & easy and I'm not trying to be funny or cute about it.

Simply put, I think I'm getting far, far, FAR more for my money than with almost every single other thing I can possibly find to spend my money on, and that's because I get an irrational volume of use and enjoyment from it, and when taken care of properly, I expect that (politics notwithstanding) that the children of my Grandchildren will still be able to enjoy them assuming nobody along the way has wrecked them.

Maybe not for all of my guns, but certainly for the better quality examples of them. They are incredibly durable and I would expect that most anyone I will choose to leave a particular gun to will simply not shoot it as much as I have, and it'll last a freakishly long time.

In fact, it's this very thing that makes it so extremely difficult for me to justify many other purchases. I'm not talking about spending money on things I need or items that aren't optional, but when it comes to choosing what kind of fun & leisure items to spend money on, I have a heckuva justifying some of them when I pit them against the enjoyment and durability/longevity of the firearms I purchase.

My monies' worth? Man, no question whatsoever. There's maybe nothing I can think of that I ever spend money on that makes more sense.

 

[jmr40]

can't think of the name of the tax right now,but there is a 10 or 15 % tax on guns and other sporting goods that sportsmen called for in the early 1900,s to fund wildlife resources.

Pittman Robertson Act.

A lot of people seem overly concerned because they perceive many plastic guns as being over priced relative to the cost to manufacture. Any products worth is based on how useful and desireable it is. Not on how much it costs to make. The computer you are looking at right now, along with the software running it has a much higher profit margin over production cost than a Glock. Same with gasoline and many other products we use every day.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Perhaps you should price these guns in other countries to see just how LOW you are paying for them

 

[Pond James Pond]

Perhaps you should price these guns in other countries to see just how LOW you are paying for them

Ab-so-lutely!!

In any case things are priced based on what the market is likely to tolerate. A lot of things influence that, and production cost is but one of them. If compressors were a sport/lifestyle/hobby/passion the way firearms are, I bet they would sky-rocket in price. Truth is I think we rarely get our money's worth whenever we buy anything, especially something mass-produced....

Whilst, I see what the OP means but I feel the disparity between cost and what you get is far greater in other quarters: just look at the fashion industry. Over here, I can buy a CZ75B (probably the cheapest, new pistol around here) for about €550 (about €700?).
I could also go into a city-centre opticians and select a pair of Chanel/DKNY sunglasses and buy a pair for about €190.

To me the CZ is worth 30 pairs of fancy shades, not just 3. Luckily, I am not a fan of designer labels.

 

[larryh1108]

We also have to consider the R&D that went into that pistol as well as the R&D in refining it and for making other pistols for our needs. The cost for the X% of repairs as well as the shipping whether one way or both.

If you look at the price of a tiny, miracle pill many of us take I'd bet the raw cost is $.50, if that. However, they charge your insurance (or you) $20-$100 for each pill. This pays for the R&D in developing it as well as future miracle pills and/or cures.

If you look at $500 and compare it to a computer that is outdated in 2 years or one of those fancy phones, etc, you will see that the gun will still be worth what you paid for it in 10 years or 50 years but that computer, phone, or almost anything electric, will be useless and probably in a dump somewhere. Guns like S&W revolvers that sold for $179 40 years ago are selling for $500-$800+ today. If you have an Atari from the 80s you may get $20 for it but you paid $200 for it.

 

[oldcabin]

I went to buy craftsmen tools for a Christmas present at S##rs. All hand tools, sets, sockets, all of them except for screwdrivers were made in Taiwan and or China. Prices were the same as last I remembered.
Point is, we are lucky we aren't looking at it the other way. We could, for the most part, be getting crap built poorly and paying currect prices, and really have no choice. That scenario has crept up on us in almost every other aspect of what we buy.
We all know what the cheap $150 45 or 9mm is like. What if next week thats all that was left except for the uber high end custom jobs... I walked out of S##rs with USA made screwdrivers.

 

[Crankgrinder]

I think the cost of firearms is generally high considering what they are, and what they cost to make, but I also know there are legal costs as well along with R&D. That's not including thins like sks' which used to cost $50 now cost $400+ due to politics, no other reason.

 

[Dashunde]

^ I guess that was my original point... the power washer I mentioned probably requires 100 times the materials and processes than a Glock does, but the Glock comes with 100 times the baggage/liability/taxes.

Sevens had a good point about longevity and heirloom qualities.

There's also the value of having a sense of security, knowing that your not a helpless target.
Tough to put a number on that..

 

[sigcurious]

To be fair, while something like a power washer might have more parts and be more complex, it probably has fewer unique parts and a much more distributed R&D and manufacturing cost. For example, the heart of it being the little Honda motor, I'd guess there are plenty of two or four stroke generic parts(I don't know exactly what the gx200 is) that can be used as replacements and in the original manufacture that Honda doesn't have to make themselves, let alone the power washer company. Not to mention as a whole the motor itself has a multitude of applications, not just power washers. I'd reckon a lot of the other bits and pieces are similarly non-unique.

Conversely, the number of bits and pieces of a gun that are interchangeable from brand to brand let alone applications beyond guns are pretty limited. Sure you have designs like ARs and 1911s which multiple brands make, but for the most part everyone does their own thing. I suspect for a lot of things one might compare to guns(similar price range and mechanical) the economies of scale are much better for the other things due to more interchangeable parts or fewer unique parts.

 

[Hal]

Your average gun is going to be working fine long after your pressure washer and compressor have gone to that big tool rebuilder in the sky.

It's not a fair comparison.

I think it's an easy, EASY, simple answer. Seriously, quick & easy and I'm not trying to be funny or cute about it.

Simply put, I think I'm getting far, far, FAR more for my money than with almost every single other thing I can possibly find to spend my money on, and that's because I get an irrational volume of use and enjoyment from it, and when taken care of properly, I expect that (politics notwithstanding) that the children of my Grandchildren will still be able to enjoy them assuming nobody along the way has wrecked them.

Well - I can tell you from the perspective of a 50 year work history and buying guns since the early 1970's that - - - guns have never been cheaper than they are now.

If you figure out how many hours you have to work to buy a gun today vs how many hours it took back in the "good old days", you'll find that, generally, it's far less today than it was back then.

Guns simply have not kept pace with other consumer stuff like gasoline, houses, cars, food and a whole host of other things.

In 1970, I was making about - $2.50 an hour.
In 2010, when I retired, I was making about - $25.00 an hour.
Problem is - everything costs at least ten times more today than it did back then.
I pretty much ran in place for 40 some years.

So - heck yeah you're getting more than your money's worth out of your guns. Even if you didn't enjoy them as much, the figures bear out that you are paying less for them as a percentage of your income, as time and inflation go by.

I hate to say it, but, the same goes for ammunition.

 

[Dashunde]

Your average gun is going to be working fine long after your pressure washer and compressor have gone to that big tool rebuilder in the sky.
It's not a fair comparison.

The power washer works really hard during its life.
If you cycled a pistol at just 1/3rd the rpm of the small engine it wouldn't last an hour.
(Think 1000 rounds per minute)
Pistol machining is terribly sloppy by comparison, it would beat itself to death in no time, even with constant lubrication and cooling the results would be dismal... meanwhile the engine would purr along another 2-3000 hours at 3x the speed.

The average pistol pales in manufacturing compared to the little Honda engine in terms of materials costs, fine machining, R&D, and assembly...yet the pistol still costs more.
By now I guess we've covered the reasons why (insurance, lawyers, taxes).
I dont like buying insurance and lawyers. Not a good value imo...

 

[BigD_in_FL]

^ I guess that was my original point... the power washer I mentioned probably requires 100 times the materials and processes than a Glock does, but the Glock comes with 100 times the baggage/liability/taxes.

And I would bet that the ad pages bought for a Glock FAR outnumber the pressure washer. Go to Barnes and Noble or a good magazine stand and see how many gun rags there are now, and they have to buy ad space in everyone of them. CNC machines are not cheap to buy, program, or maintain either. Taxes and labor in Germany are very high. Import duties, taxes, insurance, and on and on and there is a LOT more to a product than just the components

 

[Hal]

Yeah - and push either your compressor or pressure washer up to 20k or 30k PSI and see if they last any longer than the gun does when it's misused....

And I would bet that the ad pages bought for a Glock FAR outnumber the pressure washer

That would be a very foolish bet & you would lose.
Home improvement, DIY, contracting, etc by far have more ad money than firearms.
Those magazines consume far more shelf space than the gun rags do.