Are we fighting a losing battle with our gun rights?
- Thread starter vitesse9
- Start date
rangermonroe
New member
About 5 years ago I was watching an MSNBC special on the "gun culture " of the US. Of course, it was the foxy news babe (laurie Dhu) interviewing us "common folks" trying to be neutral.
Her attitued seemed to be somewhat condecending, but on a whole it was as middle of the road as it could have been for mainstream media.
Until she got to the dreaded assault weapon.
After a 2 day training course somewhere in Kalifornia, she was ging to fire and assault weapon...an UZI FA.
She was almost sneering as she said.."lets see what all the fuss is about" emptied a few magazines FA and had that look tht my wife has less often than I would like.
I'm talking weak in the knees blushing and breathless. "That was a lot more fun than I thought." She seemed to lose her composure and chattered about how fun that was. She now works for Fox news and probably owns an UZi.
My point is that we need to convert enemies to allies. Take that anti gunner shooting...They will go sometimes. And then they get to see how much fun owning a gun is, and how polite we are.
Foirget convincing them of the real reason for the 2nd, that will come with time, but if they see shooting recreationally as clean wholesome, family fun fun and not some drunk guy shooting an ak at bill clinton targets it may change their position.
Her attitued seemed to be somewhat condecending, but on a whole it was as middle of the road as it could have been for mainstream media.
Until she got to the dreaded assault weapon.
After a 2 day training course somewhere in Kalifornia, she was ging to fire and assault weapon...an UZI FA.
She was almost sneering as she said.."lets see what all the fuss is about" emptied a few magazines FA and had that look tht my wife has less often than I would like.
I'm talking weak in the knees blushing and breathless. "That was a lot more fun than I thought." She seemed to lose her composure and chattered about how fun that was. She now works for Fox news and probably owns an UZi.
My point is that we need to convert enemies to allies. Take that anti gunner shooting...They will go sometimes. And then they get to see how much fun owning a gun is, and how polite we are.
Foirget convincing them of the real reason for the 2nd, that will come with time, but if they see shooting recreationally as clean wholesome, family fun fun and not some drunk guy shooting an ak at bill clinton targets it may change their position.
What a bunch of defeatist sentiment I see here.
RKBA is an endless struggle. ENDLESS. There have always been forces, individuals, etc., who thought it better that you be disarmed. Cicero commented on it. Machiavelli commented on it. Jefferson commented on it. We all comment on it. It has ever been thus. We are merely coming off of what we hope was the zenith of the gun control movement between 1968 and 1996. It will take time and incrementalism to regain that which has been lost.
In 1986, the states where concealed carry was legal via mandatory license issue could be counted on one hand. Now the states where it is not mandatory can be ticked off with two.
There are more firearms in private possession than at any time in our nation's history. Qualitatively, the sheer amount of firepower in private hands has never been greater.
The AWB just died. Did it die from any action in the last Congress? No. It died because of the fierce effort posted in 1994 to include the sunset, which bought time for Democratic hubris and overreaching to hit its logical end.
We all suffer from the shortsightedness that our circumstances are somehow unique. We ridicule teenagers for their angst but we fail to check it in ourselves. Things are never as good or as bad as they seem, and civilization has been failing since at least Mesopotamian times.
The majority of people in this country since 1789 never hunted. Most went to the market or had a delivery made, even if that delivery was from the barn. Most people who weren't slaveholders or on the frontier never had a day to day need for a weapon, though most houses held at least one for militia/emergency concerns. The "good old days" have always been romanticised. Yeah, you could own a Thompson SMG, bought through the mail without a background check, in 1930. What 89.5% or more of you could never have done is afford one on a cash basis.
It is your job to evangelize RKBA, it doesn't just happen. It never happened via a walk in the woods with a rifle. I have a cousin who is the son of an avid hunter. Once he moved out of the house, he has never gone hunting again, because he could finally say he didn't really care for it and has his own interests. I have a sister who never went hunting at all because my Dad, being a product of his generation, never thought she'd enjoy it. She is into guns out a personal safety concern so it didn't matter.
For so long we ignored fully half of the population and yet we still hand-wring about the loss of the gun culture as hunting fades. That fear for the future of the gun culture is misplaced. It is no big secret that rifle owners and skeet shooters pretty much suck at defending RKBA in all of its dimensions, betraying a quick trigger finger when it comes to selling out EBR and handgun owners. Such was on full display from some outdoor writers supporting Kerry last election. The "can't be bothered" sporting purposes shooter is more concerned with the ability to have a roadless wilderness than in voting his gun, falsely believeing that the Dims will never come after their .72 bore killing machines or their scoped sniper rifles. If you rely on hunters to protect your RKBA, you will certainly lose it.
What needs to happen is to adapt the gun culture. I have converted two non-shooters into shooters in just the past year. That doesn't sound very impressive in sheer numbers, but it was also a helluva lot quicker than raising my two future shooters who are aged four and one. We didn't even go looking for an ungulate, just went and blasted some cans. I always buy or bring everything the first few times out. The "history/RKBA MSM deprogramming lecture" comes in a few parts during the cleaning sessions. Short version: It's the nut behind the gun who matters and the police have no duty to come to your aid 24/7 and won't get there in time anyway. The LA riots and Reginald Denny work great in that regard.
It's on you to fight the blissninnies. If they outnumber you, it is only because you think someone else should be doing the hard work of drawing ahead through converts. Don't go out of your way to convert other people's minors, though it is great when one can do this. Convert your friends and acquaintances with disposable income and adult security concerns first. They will individually likely become much more solid on RKBA than half a dozen weekend trap shooters for whom golf is simply too much walking.
RKBA is an endless struggle. ENDLESS. There have always been forces, individuals, etc., who thought it better that you be disarmed. Cicero commented on it. Machiavelli commented on it. Jefferson commented on it. We all comment on it. It has ever been thus. We are merely coming off of what we hope was the zenith of the gun control movement between 1968 and 1996. It will take time and incrementalism to regain that which has been lost.
In 1986, the states where concealed carry was legal via mandatory license issue could be counted on one hand. Now the states where it is not mandatory can be ticked off with two.
There are more firearms in private possession than at any time in our nation's history. Qualitatively, the sheer amount of firepower in private hands has never been greater.
The AWB just died. Did it die from any action in the last Congress? No. It died because of the fierce effort posted in 1994 to include the sunset, which bought time for Democratic hubris and overreaching to hit its logical end.
We all suffer from the shortsightedness that our circumstances are somehow unique. We ridicule teenagers for their angst but we fail to check it in ourselves. Things are never as good or as bad as they seem, and civilization has been failing since at least Mesopotamian times.
The majority of people in this country since 1789 never hunted. Most went to the market or had a delivery made, even if that delivery was from the barn. Most people who weren't slaveholders or on the frontier never had a day to day need for a weapon, though most houses held at least one for militia/emergency concerns. The "good old days" have always been romanticised. Yeah, you could own a Thompson SMG, bought through the mail without a background check, in 1930. What 89.5% or more of you could never have done is afford one on a cash basis.
It is your job to evangelize RKBA, it doesn't just happen. It never happened via a walk in the woods with a rifle. I have a cousin who is the son of an avid hunter. Once he moved out of the house, he has never gone hunting again, because he could finally say he didn't really care for it and has his own interests. I have a sister who never went hunting at all because my Dad, being a product of his generation, never thought she'd enjoy it. She is into guns out a personal safety concern so it didn't matter.
For so long we ignored fully half of the population and yet we still hand-wring about the loss of the gun culture as hunting fades. That fear for the future of the gun culture is misplaced. It is no big secret that rifle owners and skeet shooters pretty much suck at defending RKBA in all of its dimensions, betraying a quick trigger finger when it comes to selling out EBR and handgun owners. Such was on full display from some outdoor writers supporting Kerry last election. The "can't be bothered" sporting purposes shooter is more concerned with the ability to have a roadless wilderness than in voting his gun, falsely believeing that the Dims will never come after their .72 bore killing machines or their scoped sniper rifles. If you rely on hunters to protect your RKBA, you will certainly lose it.
What needs to happen is to adapt the gun culture. I have converted two non-shooters into shooters in just the past year. That doesn't sound very impressive in sheer numbers, but it was also a helluva lot quicker than raising my two future shooters who are aged four and one. We didn't even go looking for an ungulate, just went and blasted some cans. I always buy or bring everything the first few times out. The "history/RKBA MSM deprogramming lecture" comes in a few parts during the cleaning sessions. Short version: It's the nut behind the gun who matters and the police have no duty to come to your aid 24/7 and won't get there in time anyway. The LA riots and Reginald Denny work great in that regard.
It's on you to fight the blissninnies. If they outnumber you, it is only because you think someone else should be doing the hard work of drawing ahead through converts. Don't go out of your way to convert other people's minors, though it is great when one can do this. Convert your friends and acquaintances with disposable income and adult security concerns first. They will individually likely become much more solid on RKBA than half a dozen weekend trap shooters for whom golf is simply too much walking.
A great way to help is to get involved with your local Boy Scout program. They still have the rifle and shotgun badge (I don't know when they got rid of the pistol to get the badge) and that is a good start.
For the ladies, demand that the rifle/shotgun badge be an option for the Girl Scouts. Say it's to be on equal footing with the boys (as in, guilt them into it if they don't have it already).
Once those young boys get their fingers on a trigger it's hard to pry them off. And, even if they grow up to be liberal (with the school systems the way they are) the shooting of a gun for the first time will always nag at them and maybe once they weed through the lies will become gun owners.
Most adults are a lost cause, but young men can be formed into great men (and the same goes for the Girl Scouts but they will be young ladies that won't "lie back and take it" as the brady bunch tells them to do now).
Wayne
For the ladies, demand that the rifle/shotgun badge be an option for the Girl Scouts. Say it's to be on equal footing with the boys
(as in, guilt them into it if they don't have it already).Once those young boys get their fingers on a trigger it's hard to pry them off. And, even if they grow up to be liberal (with the school systems the way they are) the shooting of a gun for the first time will always nag at them and maybe once they weed through the lies will become gun owners.
Most adults are a lost cause, but young men can be formed into great men (and the same goes for the Girl Scouts but they will be young ladies that won't "lie back and take it" as the brady bunch tells them to do now).
Wayne
Boats,
Dang, just noticed that your in Oregon also.. cool.
There seems to be a divide in Eugene when it comes to guns. About 50-50 but unfortunatly with the "leaders" that we have they seem to make whatever laws that they wish
. Not as bad as Portland yet but I think that they take this as a challage to catch up .
BTW, I like your train of thought.
I am serious about folks helping out the Scouts through. I helped to get the Eddie Eagle program into the Unit that they have to sit through (the younger ones love it, the older ones
but they listen and learn, it's kinda funny to watch them but see them remember the lessons learned and do them).
I will admit that I'm more comfortable around kids then adults though so it may not be something for everyone.
Wayne
Dang, just noticed that your in Oregon also.. cool.
There seems to be a divide in Eugene when it comes to guns. About 50-50 but unfortunatly with the "leaders" that we have they seem to make whatever laws that they wish
. Not as bad as Portland yet but I think that they take this as a challage to catch up .BTW, I like your train of thought.
I am serious about folks helping out the Scouts through. I helped to get the Eddie Eagle program into the Unit that they have to sit through (the younger ones love it, the older ones
but they listen and learn, it's kinda funny to watch them but see them remember the lessons learned and do them).I will admit that I'm more comfortable around kids then adults though so it may not be something for everyone.
Wayne
In reality, there are very few organized groups who truly want your right to own and carry a gun taken away from you. Those who speak the loudest against your rights are among the ones with the most to lose if it actually happened. Without something to complain about, something to raise funds for, something to take "legitimate" expenses out of.......
Rest easy. You'll die with the same gun rights you have today.
Rest easy. You'll die with the same gun rights you have today.
I think there we are winning, though it is currently a stalemate. The "British experiment" is a dismal failure. We let them sneak up on us with the 50 cal bans. As well as the greater activity in state legislature. What we really need are a few good case to be herd by the supreme court. The "War on Drugs" is a case of the cure being worse than the disease. (Prohibition anyone.) We need to stay active. Remember, to cover a lie, one needs another lie. Eventualy the whole thing becomes a stack of cards. When telling the truth, nothing is hidden. I also believe that the advent of the internet has made "liberal bias" in the media quite obvious to many people. The Dems are also alienating many of their own members (More so than the Republican party.) Overall, the tide is turning, but we must keep up out gaurd.
/My $.02
/My $.02
"The "War on Drugs" is a case of the cure being worse than the disease. (Prohibition anyone.)"
Exactly. And the equating of the "War on Drugs" with Prohibition is spot on. It is exactly the same, it has had exactly the same results. And the cure for it (the WOD, that is) is exactly the same as for the ills of Prohibition: Legalization, with taxation. It puts a whole class of thugs out of business, and makes a whole class of criminals into taxpaying citizens. At the same time, it removes the entire reason for having rampant tresspasses on the rights of the people by overzealous law enforcement.
Exactly. And the equating of the "War on Drugs" with Prohibition is spot on. It is exactly the same, it has had exactly the same results. And the cure for it (the WOD, that is) is exactly the same as for the ills of Prohibition: Legalization, with taxation. It puts a whole class of thugs out of business, and makes a whole class of criminals into taxpaying citizens. At the same time, it removes the entire reason for having rampant tresspasses on the rights of the people by overzealous law enforcement.
I guess you could call me an optimistic realist. I am optimistic enough to keep fighting to keep all the rights we have, . . . get back some if we can, . . .
But I am a realist enough to know that there is coming a day when the USA will go to hell in a handbasket just like Canada, Australia, GB, and many other places.
Leftward politicians, animal activists, Democrats, and the rest of those five alarm fruit cakes out there will not be happy until we are all disarmed, . . . and big brother is watching out for our welfare. I just say "Thank God I am 60 and probably won't live to see it all", . . . but if I do, . . . I'll optimistically cross that bridge when it gets here, . . . with a 1911 in my hand.
May God bless,
Dwight
But I am a realist enough to know that there is coming a day when the USA will go to hell in a handbasket just like Canada, Australia, GB, and many other places.
Leftward politicians, animal activists, Democrats, and the rest of those five alarm fruit cakes out there will not be happy until we are all disarmed, . . . and big brother is watching out for our welfare. I just say "Thank God I am 60 and probably won't live to see it all", . . . but if I do, . . . I'll optimistically cross that bridge when it gets here, . . . with a 1911 in my hand.
May God bless,
Dwight
Frenchwrench
New member
The loss of gun rights(second ammendment) will be the loss of the United States of America.All the other Amends stand or fall by the 2nd.
Fjolnirsson
New member
Boss Spearman
New member
I know kids who love gun video games that don't want to go near a real gun. I don't consider video games an influencing factor in our favor at all.
progunner1957
Moderator
What happens when you shoot a thug in self-defense?
First of all, I am aware that this varies from state to state. I'm hoping some LE officers, attorneys or anyone else can shed some light on what happens when a person is forced to shoot a thug in self-defense.
I have read that the police impound your weapon/ammo for testing, and that some jurisdictions will actually come to your home and impound ALL your weapons. Is that true? I can see the need to impound the weapon used in the shooting, but what in h*ll's half-acre justifies the police taking ALL of your weapons and leaving you defensless at the hands of the friends/family of the thug you shot??
Also, what happesn as far as giving a statement to the police about what happened and how it happened? Is the shooter forced to be interroated endlessly for hours on end, or can the shooter give a statement once and then be left alone?
What do the police do if you are threatened, confronted, shot at or attacked by friends/family of the thug?
Do the police routinely put the shooter in jail? Is he/she able to tell them what happened and then go home? Is the shooter charged immediately with murder or attempted murder (depending on the thug's surviving or not) or do the police wait till they have all the facts before they charge the shooter?
Any one who has knowledge of this type of situation who will be willing to share their experience/knowledge with the rest of us will be greatly appreciated for doing so.
First of all, I am aware that this varies from state to state. I'm hoping some LE officers, attorneys or anyone else can shed some light on what happens when a person is forced to shoot a thug in self-defense.
I have read that the police impound your weapon/ammo for testing, and that some jurisdictions will actually come to your home and impound ALL your weapons. Is that true? I can see the need to impound the weapon used in the shooting, but what in h*ll's half-acre justifies the police taking ALL of your weapons and leaving you defensless at the hands of the friends/family of the thug you shot??
Also, what happesn as far as giving a statement to the police about what happened and how it happened? Is the shooter forced to be interroated endlessly for hours on end, or can the shooter give a statement once and then be left alone?
What do the police do if you are threatened, confronted, shot at or attacked by friends/family of the thug?
Do the police routinely put the shooter in jail? Is he/she able to tell them what happened and then go home? Is the shooter charged immediately with murder or attempted murder (depending on the thug's surviving or not) or do the police wait till they have all the facts before they charge the shooter?
Any one who has knowledge of this type of situation who will be willing to share their experience/knowledge with the rest of us will be greatly appreciated for doing so.