Are semi-auto 5.56's stupid In a real fight?

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Rates are opined to be much higher today due to "soldier conditioning" and the ease of use of the M16/M4 platform, some say now over 90% in actual combat.
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I'd agree that "shooting rates" are higher. "Hitting rates" are way down.



A number of cartridges have been looked at by various groups as replacement for the 5.56. None really show a remarkable advantage to make it worth while. .308 certainly doesn't do it.

If it were up to me there are a few options out there these days that are new and better in many ways. But it has to be worth it.
 
I've seen it fail to fully penetrate plastic target backers at 400 and 500 yards with some regularity. And this is NOT due to the projectile being slow - the trajectory is exactly what you'd expect. The shot didn't hit low. It just couldn't reliably make it through a single layer of yard sign plastic.
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Come on now.
 
Out there on the range I'm a cool hand and a good shot. Paper and steel fear me.

But I am a civilian. If I got into a serious firefight I don't have a lot of confidence in my ability to think straight or shoot straight. My go-to pieces of choice would be my Colt sp1 and my Browning Hi Power. Guess I'm just old fashioned.
 
Military doctrine is to wound-create a casualty, take an opponent out of the fight, burden their system with caring for him. And there really is no "all round" cartridge. Open deserts and plains, mountains, against aircraft, rounds below 7MM Mauser have been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Closer ranges, urban areas, thick jungles, smaller rounds do OK. I agree the effectiveness of full autos are "greatly exaggerated".
I suspect the percentage of soldiers who actually fire their weapons in combat has gone way down with the transition from close-order/shoulder to shoulder formations with the NCOs in the rear to maintain order to open order/hit the dirt tactics.
It's like the debate over the 22LR for Self Defense. Not a good 1st/2nd/3rd or 4th choice, but beats fists, feet, and foul language.
 
DeusComedis

Your question is about a "real fight". I'm not a Veteran or LEO. I've never shot anyone.I've never had the people around me,my people,shot.
I'm grateful for that,with respect for those who have served.I'll take the word of folks who have been there/done that...without asking them to re-experience it.

True,tough,courageous people have fought on after getting hit multiple times.
I think it is also true that I,and most of us,would likely be seriously distracted,want an emergency room,and might be dying from a 22LR hit at 100 yds.
I have seen quite a number of gunshot wounds from hunting.How about you?

No offense or disrespect intended,but I think I'm picking up on a lot of thought and academic position,but not really connecting it with real world experience.
I suspect you do not have a concept of being hit with a 5.56 round and what effect it would have on you.I don't either,really,other than from hunting.
That's enough to cause me to believe the 5.56 will take a man out of action.
Eventually.If he is pointing an RPG at you,you might want to keep pulling the trigger till he goes down.
Under those circumstances,you might do the same with an M-14.
I think it says something when our enemies prize our weapons when they can get them.
 
To answer your question, I've shot white tailed deer and ducks with my dad as kid, but neither of those were trying to kill me.
Never witnessed a human being shot.

Also, who cares if it sounds "academic". People who haven't been in a scenario are the exact ones who would have questions about it.
 
I've been in the pits, and the supersonic crack of 77gr match bullets flying over my head when the other relay is shooting the 600 yard line is something that I seem to remember happening....

At 600 meters a 77gr SMK that left the muzzle at 2,650 fps still has almost three times the energy remaining than a 22lr starts with at the muzzle. In fact, at 600 meters that 77gr SMK launched at 2,650 fps has as much energy remaing as a milspec 147gr 9x19 at the muzzle.

That hypothetical load going 2,650fps is still supersonic until just past 700 meters.

I have a difficult time believing that a "yard sign" would stop a 22lr at the muzzle, or a 9mm at the muzzle, so I also have a hard time believing that the same yard sign would stop a 77gr SMK launched at 2,650 fps from a 16" AR carbine. The possibility exists that maybe it could, if the bullet was highly unstable (such as being launched from a 1:9 twist) and maybe it was keyholing through the cardboard and hit the "yard sign" on its side...but still, not something I'd want to get shot with.

But there is an easy way for Llama Bob to prove his point, take pictures next time it happens.

Jimro
 
I will happily wager that if we shoot 100 rounds of 77gr FGMM out of a 16" AR at a yard sign plastic target backer with a standard paper target on the front at 500y that at least 2 will penetrate the paper but fail to penetrate the plastic behind it leaving a "dimple" or hole substantially less than .22 cal. I'm willing to wager up to $50,000 at even odds, but not less than $10,000 to make it worth my time.
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Gambling is illegal in my state but I am willing to travel to Vegas to make my dreams come true. All you have to do is show that you have $50K to lose put in trust somewhere, I'll gladly do the same.

However to make it in keeping with the OP's silliness we must use a standard military load. No military uses .223 and the FGMM does not come in 5.56.

http://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/gold-medal/gold-medal-sierra-matchking/

I also don't know of any standard issue military 77gr bullet either.

So if your gripe is about the rifle (and not even the same kind of ammo under discussion) or about the particular ammo you use in it you really should clarify that. These are all different things.
 
Mk262 Mod0 and Mk262 Mod1 both used 77gr SMKs. Mod0 without cannelure, Mod1 with cannelure.

2,750 fps from an M16A2 or A4. About 2,550 to 2,600 from an M4.

Jimro
 
Back in the 70's there was a commonly seen photo of a GI steel helmet used to test the original 55 gr GI load. It was a hole through both sides of the helmet at 500 meters,as I recall.

Who knows what you get from world wide generic and reman ammo.

I am quite skeptical about the yard sign. .223 punches through the 5/8 cello-tex I use for target backing at 500 yds and keeps going
 
I love people who claim something can't possibly happen, but then as soon as you offer to bet they want to change the terms of the wager because they know you're right :D

Here's what I know: I load FGMM in my 16" AR, because it shoots well and I see no reason to change to some other load. I shoot it at targets backed by yard sign material strung between T posts with bailing wire. At 100-300y, the projectile always goes through the target backer. At 400 and 500y, it sometimes fails to penetrate.

If you want to bet on that - exactly what I described above - I will be in Vegas around New Years and I'll bring cash (and sufficient security) and expect you to do the same, and we'll go to a shooting range (there's no shortage in LV) and shoot 100 rounds of FGMM at at the exact same target setup I just described with my 16" AR. If at least two fail to penetrate, I take your money. Do we have a bet?
 
If I'm going into a real fight, and I know its going to happen before hand, I'm going where I can see a long ways. I'm heading into steepest, windy, desert mountains Idaho has to offer, with a high-power scoped bolt action, and maybe an FAL.

My problem with 5.56 never has been trajectory, or killing power, or the AR platform; its wind. Since the invention of the laser range finder, wind is the hardest thing to deal with. Wind is always different based on the shape of the canyon and the ridges. Out to 400yds, I've never had trouble with wind on a high-power (.30-06, .270, .308) to the point it would make me miss a man sized target entirely. My CMP 20" AR, which I love dearly, I have to start worrying a little at anything beyond 200yds. Wind is strange to detect and its something that is always there, at least where I'm from.
 
But there is an easy way for Llama Bob to prove his point, take pictures next time it happens.
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I have no problem with that. I probably won't get back to shooting that far until spring, but taking pictures isn't a problem.

The issue is not twist, by the way. The barrel is a 1:7.5" twist barrel in an LMT MRP. The bullet strikes are not keyholes - the hole in the paper is round. And the trajectory is as-expected.
 
Stupid? No, there are certainly better choices, but its plenty sufficient for the scenario you describe. Thinking its the only sensible choice is ignorant however. But personally I think overkill is underrated, I'd prefer a .308. Just my uneducated opinion.
 
Now that Llama Bob has "changed" the parameters to hanging a piece of backer with bailing wire, sure it is possible that a tumbled bullet hits right and smacks the backer out of the way.

What Kraig has shot, and I have shot as well as anyone else who has shot HP at the 1K line, is backers in a sturdy frame at 1000 yards, and I have yet to see one of thousands hit the target and not penetrate a backer (made of cardboard and yard sign plastic), even tumblers.
 
Except there's no "tumbled" bullets here. The bullet is perfectly stable and I changed nothing. Just to be clear, the backer is zip tied at all 4 corners to two pieces of bailing wire between T posts. It is held firmly.

The parameters of my bet are quite clear for people to take or refuse depending on how willing they are to put their money where their mouth is. I'm simply setting up the exact same scenario where I've noticed failure to penetrate repeatedly in the past. If you're now not so sure you'll win (and all the hyperventilating clearly proves that), then you have to admit I'm not trolling and instead just reporting observed facts.
 
Comparing the 175 SMK in a 308 with the 77 SMK in a 5.56, in normal match loadings there is only a hair more then 2 MOA difference in wind corrections for a 15 MPH FV wind.

If you were to check the High Power scores from when we used the M14 to the ARs, you'll find the scores are higher now with the ARs.

Yes the AR is easier to shoot the M14s, which does allow more women and juniors to get involved in HP, which is a good thing in my opinion.

Heck I was just a kid when I started using the AR, 19 to be exact. That was in the High Lands, Jungles and Mountains of I CORP, RVN.

It worked for this kid then, (w/55 gr bullets) it works now for this old man, except now my targets are different.

I will admit I never shot yard signs, but I've shot a lot of those Army Plastic E-targets at close range and at distance using my SP1 and M193 Ball (55 gr) bullets, never had one bounce off. Even from a moving vehicle.

This was at Guernsey NG Base, Wyoming.

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Llama Bob,

A human torso at 400....will always have a different reaction to a 77gr SMK load than your yard sign backer strung on bailing wire.

A human head...might be able to survive with a glancing blow, but not anything approaching 90 degrees incident to the skull housing the brain. Still, wouldn't want a glancing blow to my head if I could avoid it.

Your experience with a loose yard sign hung on bailing wire is not a valid testing medium for criticizing 5.56 performance on human beings.

Jimro
 
No Bob, your post completely fits the definition of trolling: "make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them."

There is no way a stable 77 grain bullet bounces off yard sign plastic (at 500 yards) going 1400 fps. That is more energy than a .22LR at the muzzle, and they go through yard signs. That is more than 5 times the energy threshold to penetrate flesh.
 
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