Are My Concerns Unfounded?

Rule #1: There are no certainties. jtkwon’s Browing .50 heavy machinegun evidence (above) is new to me, but it really proves the point.
Rule #2: Accuracy counts. A central nervous system hit will instantaneously disable, for example.
Rule #3: Your system – firearm, ammunition, reload quantity, and even belt/holster – should be optimal for your circumstances. A “last out watch” South Carolina state trooper has VERY different requirements than a suburbanite taking his dry cleaning to the shopping center on a Saturday morning.

I feel secure with .38 Special +Ps in my Ruger SP101 (normally Gold Dots or LSWCHPs) for many situations. I would also note that more individuals are killed by .22s every year than by any other single caliber; while I obviously do not advocate the .22 for defense, it is frequently lethal.
 
For Wallew, the Marshall report:
FAILURE #1: A southern cop, he was on midnight patrol in the downtown
area alone. Driving past an alley, he saw two men standing with their
back to him at a doorway. He called for backup, but decided to
investigate matters before his help arrived -- an almost fatal error.
He yelled at the two men to turn around. They did and opened fire with
the .45s they carried. The officer took five torso hits with .45 ball
and collapsed. He told me from his hospital bed, "Evan, I knew I was
going to die in that alley, and then I heard those bastards laughing
at me." Pulling himself to one knee, he pulled his duty revolver and
killed them. His weapon? A S&W Model 10 loaded with 158-grain round
nose lead ammo!

FAILURE #2: The rooming house residents had been arguing all day.
Finally, two of them had traded blows and vowed to go and get their
guns. They met in the hallway. One was armed with a Government Model
Colt loaded with hardball, while the other had a cheap .22 caliber
revolver. Our .45 lover laughed and opened fire After he emptied his
gun, he looked in amazement as the .22 carrier pointed his small
revolver at his chest and fired once. The auto dropped from his hand
as he died. The .22 carrier went to his room, changed clothes and then
took two different buses to the hospital where the doctors removed
seven rounds of .45 ball from his chest.

FAILURE #3: A motorcycle cop, he carried a Colt Gold Cup loaded with
200-grain jacketed hollow point ammo. Making a traffic stop for a
minor violation, he was suddenly confronted by a revolver-armed
motorist. The officer fired twice and then game chase as his attacker
took of on foot. The foot pursuit lasted for 13 block, until the bad
guy ran into a garage and, sticking the gun in his mouth, took his own
life. The autopsy found a .38 slug in his head and two expanded .45
hollow points in his chest!!

FAILURE #4: A U.S. military member with counter-terrorist
responsibilities, he carried a cocked and locked .45 everywhere he
went. He and his wife were walking to their car in the theater parking
lot when he was confronted by three long-haired youths. They demanded
his wallet, and when he told them to forget it, one pulled a knife.
The soldier's response was swift and sure. He pulled his .45 and
double tapped the kid with the knife. Turning his attention to the
other youth, he suddenly heard his wife scream his name. Turning, he
saw the knife sticking from his wife's stomach. He shot the stabber
again and grabbed his wife. While in the process of providing first
aid for her, he heard a car start and saw the youth drive away. His
wife was rushed to the hospital where emergency surgery saved her
life. While leaving through the emergency exit, he saw her attacker
walking in for treatment. The 16-year-old holdup man had taken four
rounds of .45 ball in the chest and was still mobile four hours after
the incident!

FAILURE #5: A citizen was in his living room, when he heard sirens on
his quiet residential street. Looking out the window, he saw a
sheriff's deputy struggling with a man. A reserve deputy and IPSC
shooter, our hero grabbed his Lightweight Commander and ran outside.
He had just reached his driveway, when he saw the bad guy had the
deputy's Magnum. The reserve quickly fired three shots from his
Commander. To his horror, the bad guy quickly shot the deputy and
opened fire at the reservist. The bad guy then jumped in the deputy's
vehicle and escaped. He was found three days later by the state patrol
in a gas station. He had to be forcibly subdued before they could take
him to the hospital where the doctors removed three rounds of .45 ball
from his back!
Click to expand...
So yes, Virginia, it does happen. :(
Also from the same report, out of 217 cases in the study involving .45 ACP, 1 in 3 failed to be one-shot stops.
Not trying to start a flamewar or anything, just pointing out that there's no such thing as a 100% effective round. Not even the .45 ACP.
 
"Not trying to start a flamewar or anything, just pointing out that there's no such thing as a 100% effective round. Not even the .45 ACP."

Agree, but proper ammo selection is critical...
 
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Unlike what you see on TV or in the movies, it takes a while for a biological organism to die when you shoot it in the engine room! I hunt on my own 90 acre property every year. I get at least one deer every year. My deer rifle has remained the same since I bought it in 1985: Remington 700 Classic in .350 Remington Magnum with a Zeiss 4x scope. I handload the Sierra 225 SPBT GameKing bullet. Out of my 22" barrel, it comes out at 2700 fps. That's 3641 foot pounds of energy. Still over 3000 foot pounds at 100 yards and that's as far away as they ever are on my property. WITHOUT EXCEPTION every deer I've ever shot with that load has run at least 25 yards. Most make it about 50. It's a controlled expansion round and always gives me full penetration. It does a lot of damage but it doesn't "explode" the way some 130 grain .270's will. Very good killing cartridge without messing up all the meat. And it will give me end to end penetration when I have to take that kind of shot.

Anyway, the point is it takes a while for the brain to get the word that the heart, liver, lungs, and assorted other organs just packed it in. If it was a determined man with a knife right next to you, he could easily stab you several times before he laid down and died. Don't make the mistake of thinking your CCW handgun is just going to cause a bad guy to fall over the second it hits him. It doesn't work like that!

Gregg
 
Gregg,

I've just started to learn about ballistics and handguns in general (having spent my childhood with rifles and shotguns), and at this point find my original post in this thread downright stupid!

Even when I wrote that post though, I knew that handguns aren't going to cause a "bad guy" to become instantly incapacitated (unless the central nervous system is hit). What I meant by "go down, and go down quick" is that I don't want to put several rounds in the guy and have him still running around. Sure, anythings possible with any gun, but good shot placement using the proper ammo will go a long-way towards incapacitating someone.
 
Jelly,
There's no such thing as a stupid question :D...
Stopping power is a touchy question. Causes folks to get all antsy and defensive.
Everybody talks about penetration, expansion, kinetic energy. Truth is it's too complicated to explain with numbers, and too complicated to model with milk cartons filled with jello.
The only way to be sure is to shoot lots of people and compare.
We like guns around here, but none of us like shooting people.
So you go by past history; what's been proven most effective over the years at stopping humans cold.
According to the study conducted this way, that's the .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed hollow point fired from a 4" barrel. 91% effective at incapacitating a human with one shot in the chest.
By the same study, the 4" .38SP scores a best of 65% with a 158 grain lead hollowpoint.
There is a difference, although it is true that technology has improved and each situation/ human is unique. None of that is quantifiable.
 
Get the facts

First and foremost - a .38+P round, if you can hit your target, is a decent self-defense cartridge. I'll carry Winchester 125gr Silvertips or Federal's Hydrashok, either of which shoot a tad low out of my S&W 649 .357 snub.

If you want the BG to drop like the proverbial sack o' potatoes aim well. Speed is fine, accuracy is final. But never rely on one-shot stops. :eek:

As to those suggesting Glasers (Progunner1957) or suggesting Marshall & Sanow as authorities, please go look around on the wounds ballistics site at
FirearmsTactical. Glasers, Magsafe and other pre-frag rounds didn't fair too well.

And the experts here have some things to say about Marshall & Sanow. (Personally I thought Sanow was full of bovine patties back in the 80's when I first read his stuff).

Bill in CA (Unfortunately)
Webmaster - Taking on Gun Control
http://dragon.hematite.com
A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone.
 
Jelly,
One of my carry choices, in fact the only revolver I carry with any frequency is a Tauras 445. It is a 2" snub in 44 special caliber.
If you have any misgivings regarding the 38 special, you might consider the 44. It is an inherently sweet shooting and accurate round and has enough mass to start out at the size to which, upon expansion, many 36 caliber rounds aspire. I might suggest a lighter bullet for the weapon, at least lighter than 230 grains, to keep the velocity up. Even at this relatively lighter weight, say 185 gr., you are still shooting a round with more mass than a "heavy" 158 gr. 38.
SatCong
 
"Muzzle Velocity (ft/sec)
.38 - 975
.357 - 1450

Muzzle Energy (ft-lbs)
.38 - 264
.357 - 583

Now, I don't see velocity as being crucially important at the "point-blank" ranges most will use snubnose CCW's at, with the energy the round carries having the actual effect on what happens to whatever you're shooting at."

Now this makes no sense at all. Why wouldn't velocity be important at close range shooting? You just showed that two rounds of the same weight, the one w/ the most velocity has MUCH more energy.

I say, if you are questioning it, then you must not be comfortable with it. Most likely you can get the same revolver in a .357 for just a hair more size. That's what I'd prefer.

But that's just me. There are people out there who still carry .22LRs. Carry what you're comfortable with.

rvb
 
When was the last time you shot someone?

Who on this board has actually went and shot someone, or for that matter, shot an elk, deer, or other wild game. I am sure there are a few, and to those few, I ask, what happened the first time you raised that rifle/pistol to shoot your prey? :confused: I imagine you got all shaky, nervous, and had to take your time getting a good shot, or just took a bad one. How do you think your going to react the first time someone causes you to have to DEFEND yourself? Personally, I think anyone, even the most practiced shooter, would be very happy to get "just a center mass shot."
 
While I have never had to shoot a human being -- and I pray that I never will -- I have hunted. The first time things moved too fast to feel anything but anxious over not muffing the shot because it was downhill. After it was over and I was standing near a still warm, now dead animal by my own hand, there seemed to be a tinge of guilt mixing with my pride of having downed a good buck with a clean shot.

I've known people who have been thrust into the situation of self defense and you are right. The sudden adrenaline rush reduces those fine motor skills to gross movements and what seems like a small movement is actually large (or vice versa). One friend reported an almost inability to breathe as a rather large man pulled a knife an advanced on him and his wife from about 7 yards. I knew this gentleman to be a crack shot with his 1911A1 (original!). Yet his first shot hit the pelvis, the second hit about 1.5" above the right nipple and center about 1/2" and the third broke the thug's left clavicle.

In truth, however, I think the investigating officer probably said it best -- You're shaking and feeling fear because you didn't want to take a life and were forced to do it. A criminal doesn't care who he hurts or kills, but you do. Take satisfaction in that because it means you're one of the good guys.
 
Alot of good practical and anedoctal advise in this thread, to
which I'll add my own $.02...

Carry what you are most comfortable with shooting accurately - if
that is a wheelgun instead of an autoloader, so be it. It also must
be of a size/shape that you can carry it always/frequently.

Carry what you are most accurate with (within reason) - if you
can shoot 2" groups at 10 yards with a 38 Spl, but cannot keep
three rounds of 45 ACP on the paper and don't plan to practice with
it for a few thousand rounds to get better, carry the 38 Spl.

Carry what you are most comfortable with as far as handling, clearing
jams/malfunctions and can do so under alot of stress and time-pressure.

Carry a firearm that is reliable and which you have put at least a few
hundred rounds through with no failures whatsoever (for a number of
folks, change "hundred" to "thousand").

In my particular case, I carry a S&W J-frame with 38 Spl +P self
defense ammo. I have some semi-autos too, but for various reasons
I keep coming back to the simplest tool for the job.

Be safe, shoot straight !
 
Not arguing the OVERALL statement. However, I am personally unaware of ANY PERSON sustaining a 'CENTER MASS' hit with a .45 (acp OR colt) that did NOT go down. Killed, maybe not, but physics are.
Click to expand...

If you take a look at an anatomical chart "center mass" (between sternum and bellybutton) is actually pretty devoid of organs that are of immediate importance (YES you need you need your intestines, stomach, liver, spleen etc. but, you can walk around for awhile without them). There is also very little bone or cartilage mass in the area. Really a person could quite possibly take multiple through and through wounds in that area from pretty major callibers and stay upright for quite some time, i bet they would be pretty unhappy about it though.
 
I just got out of the af, was a cop, did security work, and was trained multiple times a year about shooting, etc. Center mass is the easiest target (biggest) to acquire quickly in a situation that most likely time is at a premium. Putting shots on target is better than missing, IMHO. Hitting the upper chest area would be optimal, but again, hitting your attacker anywhere beats trying for HS and missing every time.
 
Just read in G&A that Buffalo Bore has a 158gr swchp at 1000fps from a 2 inch barrel. Do the math. Thats about 350 ftlb's. Not a bad deal.
 
Another Marshall/Sanow debate?

Oh, man, I hate to do this, but I'm really tired of reading people who discredit Marshall and Sanow... I'll say it right now, I AM NOT AN EXPERT on the subject but I read every word I can find. I have read all three of Marshall and Sanow's books and believe whole-heartedly that they have done more research on the subject than anyone else I've found. If I am wrong, please re-educate me. If any of you have done the homework they have, or if you know of someone who has, let me know and I'll buy the book and read it.

Marshall and Sanow compare ACTUAL shooting results from thousands of ACTUAL shootings, and update their results about every five years to include new loads and increase the data on existing loads. Do they make money from this endeavour? I sure hope so, and well they should. Do they have a vested interest in selling you a particular load, or a particular pistol? Not that I've been able to discern. A previous poster quoted from their text to show .45 ACP failures, but please note that all but one were of hardball ammunition. Marshall and Sanow quote multiple instances of both success and failure from each caliber and many loads--that is what makes the read so compelling. Am I a .45 fan? No, I own three 9's, two .40's, a .45, and most recently a .357. Will I try to tell you what to carry? Hell, no. Am I fairly confident that, having read about 15 years worth of ACTUAL results, I have made some pretty intelligent choices with regard to ammo for each of these weapons? Hell, yes. Would I like to see my fellow law-abiding citizens make intelligent choices and increase their odds in the unlikely event that they find themselves in the position to defend themselves? Hell, yes!

Flame suit...ON.
 
I'd agree with some of the others in this thread. The 38 Special can be a real lifesaver if it is the gun you have on you as opposed to the heavyweight, heavy recoiling, infrequently practiced with 357 mag you've left at home in the safe. I've had 3 357 snubbies, & although I like them in theory, they were a "pain" to practice with, & in my case too heavy (as they were all steel models) for convenient pocket carry.
 
I've said it before....


Why would you be just standing there? Personally, I would shoot and RUN. Yeah your shot might not stop the BG but what is stopping you from moving? No one ever replies to this and continues to debate what is more effective at stopping a perp. I'm not sure how far a BG can chase me bleeding from 2 or 3 wounds from a .38 but I figure if I am not in pain and able to flee, he's gonna have a hard time catching me....no one says I can stop and shoot again if I need to.

JUST DON'T STAND THERE AND ACT STUPID.
 
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