Are My Concerns Unfounded?

J

Jelly

New member
Good afternoon everyone...what a great site you have here!

To be blunt, how do you feel, or is there a general overall consensus regarding the .38 Special +P and it's ability as an effective concealed carry personal defense weapon?

I was brought up with revolvers, and unless someone can convince me otherwise, that'll be what I purchase as a CCW.

Luckily, I've never been in a situation as of yet where I needed a gun, but I, as well as just about everyone else on this message board, has heard the horror stories about the .38...that the poor 'ol lady hit the "enraged" man twice at center mass, but he still kept coming.

Do these "stories" revolve (excuse the pun :D) around the original .38, or do they still apply to the more powerful .38 Special +P?

Since I was also brought up with Remington ammunition, I went over to their website and looked at the two rounds I would use. While I realize this is an apples to oranges comparison, I found the numbers quite interesting:

.38 - Golden Saber 125grs. BJHP
.357 - Express 125grs. SJHP

Muzzle Velocity (ft/sec)
.38 - 975
.357 - 1450

Muzzle Energy (ft-lbs)
.38 - 264
.357 - 583

Now, I don't see velocity as being crucially important at the "point-blank" ranges most will use snubnose CCW's at, with the energy the round carries having the actual effect on what happens to whatever you're shooting at. Like I said, apples to oranges, but that full-power .357 round of the same grain load is putting out over TWICE the energy!!!

Hopefully I'm not being too long winded here, and maybe it's just the aforementioned stories that are getting to me, but if I have a five round revolver, I'd want the S.O.B. to go down, and go down quick...

With that in mind, do you feel a .38 Special +P can get the job done?

Thank you,

Justin.
 
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Of coarse the .38spl+p will get the job done. Keep in mind those velocity and energy figures are from a 4in or 6in barrel and not from a snubbie. I'm not going to convince you to use something you're not comfortable with. You use whatever you're comfortable with!
 
Will,

Thank you for the reply.

I would be more comfortable if many of you here felt the .38 S +P could get the job done...

I'm also comfortable with both revolvers and pistols, but that discussion is for a different thread!
 
The old timers used to say, "beware the man with one gun - he probably knows how to use it." Sounds like yours will be just fine. :)
 
158 gr. +p lead

I load my bedside snubby with the Win. 158 gr. +p load. It is not the fastest bullet out of a snub, but it is softer lead and has an easy opening soft hollow point. Pretty heavy bullet makes for a good muzzle energy. I believe they enjoy a good rep. in these guns. it shoots just about at the top of the front sight in mine. Some lightweight bullets tend to shoot low. My snubs are all steel, and the recoil is not a problem with good grips. Pretty accurate load too. Just have to clean a little more to get the lead out of the gun later.
 
I prefer 158 gr Federal Hydra-Shoks. They are not +P. I have been using Hydra-Shoks for years. The Golden Sabers are good from a 4" barrel. A snub is a shorter barrel than "average" velocity data is lab tested in. The Federal Hydra-Shoks will expand from a snub at 25 feet. In informal testing, I have proven expansion at 3 feet. I simply have confidence in the Federal Hydra-Shoks. They are marketed as Federal Personal Defense ammunition also. I use it in 38 Special, 9MM, 357 Magnum and 45 ACP.
 
The standard loading of 158 RN lead was a poor stopper. One of the best now is the lead swchp +p, that does work.
 
I like heavier bullets in the 38 Spl in regluar or +P as the higher sectional density gives better penetration at the lower energy levels.

I'd personally be comfortable carrying a 38 Spl +P with 158 gr Hollowpoints if I couldn't make room for a larger gun.
 
FWIW, I think its more important to be familiar and competent with whatever you may have to use in a stressful situation. Short barrels are handy but I think also easier to miss with. I am personally more comfortable with revolvers and shoot them more often than autos. For me, they are also easier to use quickly, sans barrels to rack back or safeties to disengage. I believe any modern +P loading would do the job, as long as you practice with it or a comperable loading.
 
+P 38 will be adequate for most instances, provided you put the bullet in the right place.

Proven stoppers are the 158 LSWC-HP, either the Remington R38S12 (my carry load of preference in my 3" 66) or the Federal or Winchester flavor.

The new 135 JHP also shows much promise.

You can trust and rely on a 38 to handle your self-defense.
 
"Center mass" is pretty vague, and may be as precise as you'll be able to achieve under life-threatening conditions. Different perps react differently to even the same wounds, and "center mass" covers a lot of ground. As far as sure things, you certainly want a bullet with reasonable sectional density, a damaging profile, and enough velocity. Under many conditions, the 158gr SWCHP +P loadings send such bullets on their way. Everything else being equal, which it never is, a larger bullet is better. However, a .36 caliber bullet in the heart, brain, or maybe even certain parts of the pelvis is probably better than a .43 or .45 caliber bullet elsewhere, even if the latter is in "center mass."

Bullets that hold together under a wide variety of conditions, and maybe even expand and hold together under a wide variety of conditions, are probably superior to those that don't, especially if they penetrate sufficiently (as a result of sufficient weight for caliber). GDHP's come to mind, but there are also others.

Note the absence of the word "energy" in preceding and following paragraphs.

I think that the better .38 Spl loadings are adequate, although they are probably near what I would consider a reasonable minimum. Under certain conditions (indoors), I might consider them near optimum, although if everyone else jumps up and says I'm full of it and argues why a .357 Mag or .45ACP is better in every way, I'll just sit down and shut up.

You write, "but if I have a five round revolver, I'd want the S.O.B. to go down, and go down quick...."

Now you are talking about a 12 gauge with buckshot in the chest at five feet. No problem. If you are talking about handguns and going down quick, you need to remember the three above-mentioned body parts, and you need to know that Jim Cirillo had a certain amount of experience that taught him that a bullet in the head and a bullet in the brain are not necessarily synonymous.

If you like .38 Spl, go for it, but you will also need to spend plenty of time thinking and learning and practicing. And that will be true regardless of what cartridge you select.

P.S. Remove "heart" from the above list. There are certainly well-known cases of people being shot in the heart and doing plenty of bad things to other people before collapsing. The post following mine mentions making the guy chase you. Certainly a good idea, when possible. It gives the heart shot a little time to work.
 
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Every handgun caliber (even some rifle calibers) have horror stories of the bad guy taking multiple shots and not going down. And yes this includes the .357 and the .45 contrary to what some folks would have you believe. I prefer (as many "experts" recommend) not to go below a 9mm for a primary defense gun. The .38 snubby is held in high regard as a BUG because of it's reliablity and reasonably effective round in such a small package. Most of the the when someone doesn't go down fairly quickly from multiple hits from a decent caliber it has to do with the following. The bad guy is on drugs/alcohol (which really is a drug) making them both psychologically and physiologically difficult to stop. The person is enraged or mentally disturbed which has effects that drugs induce in "sane" persons. Vital areas are no being hit. Or any of the above combinations. Any gun especially handguns under these circumstanes can abd do fail. That being said a .38 or .357 is much more effective in a 4" or greater barrel. Greater velocity, longer sight radius, etc.,. I have carried both .38 and .357 Magnum snubby's. In the small guns I would rather have the .38. In the small guns the .357 throws a huge fireball, is very loud, and recoil is difficult to control. The .38 with +p rounds is stout but nothing like the .357. It is much easier to hit with and hits are all that counts. If you chose to carry a .38 snubby as your primary weapon don't make the mistake most people do. Practice with it alot. It's a hard gun to make hits with and as with any gun fast, accurate, multiple hits are what save the day. Also learn to move. Get behind something, get out of the gorilla's way, make him chase you as you hit him. Handguns are a tool. Tactics win fights, not tools. Yes a .38 snubby can be enough if used effectively withgood mindst and sound tactics.
 
Speer has a.38 special 135 gr Gold Dot +p designed specifically for snubbies. It was developed at the request of LEOs looking for effective ammo for their snubbie BUGs.

Using testing methods developed by the FBI, Speer claims this round reliably penetrates in excess of 12 inches and expands to .4 inches in bare and clothed ballistic gelatin. It should perform equally well through longer pipes.

The problem with the .38 as opposed to the 9 is that the 9 has benefitted from extensive research into improving that caliber's termial performance. .38 has languished because revos have mostly passed put of favor with LEOs.

Speer awoke to the obvious exception of BUGs. Hopefully this round will sharpen our snubbies teeth a little more.

In fact if the numbers are true, this ammo would perform about as well as .45 ball, although the .45 would likely penetrate deeper, as in overpenetrate.

Problem is I've yet to find any. It suppsedly is available to the public.
 
Every handgun caliber (even some rifle calibers) have horror stories of the bad guy taking multiple shots and not going down. And yes this includes the .357 and the .45 contrary to what some folks would have you believe.
Click to expand...

Not arguing the OVERALL statement. However, I am personally unaware of ANY PERSON sustaining a 'CENTER MASS' hit with a .45 (acp OR colt) that did NOT go down. Killed, maybe not, but physics are.

Transferance of kinetic energy SHOULD cause anyone hit 'CENTER MASS' to go down.

If there are examples, I need one, so I can alter my OWN perception. Thx for bearing with me.
 
Considering that my father was struck once in the torso by 50 BMG and didn't notice it until he got nearly 100 yards away (walking!) and lived on to this day tells me that there must be some instances where 45 ACP failed to stop someone.

My father noticed the wound only when he noticed that his boots were getting wet. He looked down and then realized he had been hit from behind.

Personally, unless it blows someone's brains all over the room, I'm not counting on something to stop someone 100% of the time. There are cases where people are even hit in the brain by 38 +P rounds, and they live just a bit longer, struggle just a bit more, before they stop.

It's not enough to hit the forebrain. You have to hit that medulla, or go sideways through the neural motor strips above the ears, areas that are only an inch or so across. Or, you have to blow the whole brain clean out of the skull. Barring that, even a reflexive trigger squeeze on the part of the bad guy can still take place.
 
Wallew,

This is secondhand, but I believe it.

In my CHL class the instructor, a Houston PD officer, said he witnessed his seargeant shoot a BG with seven rounds of .45 acp COM. The BG ran and hid behind a dumpster. The sergeant pursued and held the guy at gunpoint till my instructor caught up and cuffed him. The BG claimed not to know he'd been shot. Meanwhile the sergeant learned he'd been covering the man with an empty pistol.
 
Hi,
You might want to look at the books by Marshall and Sanow called Street Stoppers, Stopping Power, etc. They have tons of useful info and can help you make informed decisions or at least make you feel better( or worse depending on the caliber) about the caliber you choose to carry.
 
will it stop a scumbag?

Depends on where you hit him! The best combat/defense setup of what you are considering is the 4" .357mag with some high performance HPs; but then, a .38 snubbie that you actually have on your person when you need it is better than a 12ga loaded with slugs at home.

If it were me, I would go with a SIX SHOT snubbie loaded with some good HPs or Glaser Safety slugs for the snubbie. I don't like 5 shot snubbies - if you are going to go that route, you may need that 6th shot.
 
If you need a 6 shot then why not 7? If you're in a gunfight you already beat the odds. Everybody has to decide what thier threat is and what they can live with. Personally, if I'm going to carry a 6 shot gun for CCW then I'll just carry an auto. I love J frames. 5 in the gun and 6 on the speed strip.
 
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