Are laser sights any good?

robhof

I've got a Crimson Trace on my M9 and it's great for point shots from any angle. With several hundred rounds fired with the laser, I've developed muscle memory to the point that I can point the pistol without the laser on and get center body shots on a target at 10 yds(normal self defense distance). The CT's and most good lasers are adjustable and sturdy enough to handle many rounds. Even my wife, who is a very novice shooter was able to put an entire clip into the 9-10 rings by watching the red dot on her first time shooting a 9mm at 7yds.
 
I've not seen enough in action or tried one to be able to intellegently make up my mind. The biggest potential problems I see are relying on them instead of a proper sight picture, and them either failing or becoming knocked out of alignment. As a range officer for department qualifications I watched one of our retired officers use a laser sighted 229/.357 Sig at night. He used the laser instaed of his flashlight, so didnt know if he would be able to id the target or not. I can see some good, but the POSSIBILITY for bad also. If you rely on them and need them in bright daylight, you might be watching for the dot and not paying attention to what is going on. I dont rely on night sights either, for what it's worth.

I've been handgunning since my US Navy days in the early 1970s, and full time LEO since 1975. I'm a FBI trained, state APOST certified firearms instructor since 1983, and do more shooting than the average gun owner and police officer. In my opinion, less is better, but there is always room for improvement, as long as the improvement dosent pose more liabilities than benefits.

I see a lot of shooters buying add-ons hoping to make up for poor shooting habits and seeing the latest piece of equipment as a fix for poor scores or large groups. A new $2000 custom 1911 will "surely" fix their poor scores and large groups caused from trying to "wish" and"spend" themselves into a class A shooter's position. These are very much like the golfer who is convinced the newest set of clubs will make up for his failure to practice or get professional help from a local pro.

As I see it now, and have for 30+ years, you can't spend your way out of poor shooting habits and failure to praqctice.

Please, no flames, there is no intent here to rain on the laser parade. This is just from 35 years of handgunning/policing/shooting/instructing, and what I've observed first hand.
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Great points.

At the last pistol course I took, the instructor told us that he had a fellow there with one of those laser units that fit on the front of the trigger guard, but he had trouble seeing it in the very bright and sunny day and his shooting was very poor because unfortunately he didn't know how to properly use his sights, and was essentially using his laser as a crutch, something that was wasn't working for him in a very bright outside environment.


As an aside, I shot alongside the above mentioned retired officer during rifle quals, which is only 10 rounds at 50 yards. He had a Bushy in .223 with lights, a laser and a HOLO sight. I outshot him with an iron sighted Marlin 9MM camp rifle.
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classic! this reminds me of that scene in the movie "This Boy's Life" where Robert DeNiro's character with the tricked out target rifle and the fancy shooting outfit and hunter's hat, is out shot by his wife using a good old pump action 22 with dovetail sights..(pretty good movie I thought :)) Robert DeNiro's character then goes on to berate his, latest, in a series of many we are to understand, rifle, and how it too was no good, and how the sights were junk, etc etc :D
 
i think everyone would(should) agree that there are no magic fixes...and that technology shouldnt be used to try and replace proper training or building the proper skills.

but that shouldnt be used as an excuse to ignore potential benefits(if used properly and with the right mindset).

for every person who uses some piece of equipment as a crutch...theres another who misses out on something which can be a great tool.
 
What I have seen with red lasers is that they are worthless in daylight, but can be handy indoors or in low light.

How are green lasers in daylight and brighter situations?
 
based on what im always hearing are "realistic handgun ranges",the Crimson Trace is far from worthless even at high noon in my experience.
 
In ordinary indoor lighting, they are incredibly fast.

Absolutely nothing is faster or more intuitive in low light. Nothing. Don't let anyone tell you that night sights are the same, because they're not. When you are moving and the target's moving and the lighting sucks, you want a laser.

They slow you down in sunlight. If you're silly enough to try to use a laser in daylight you deserve what you get.

If you're good at pointshooting anyway (as anyone who wants to be truly competent with a pistol will be, because your sights won't always be there for you), the laser gives you one more threat-focused index.

And if the battery burns out? *shrug* I've still got my sights and I haven't forgotten how to pointshoot. They're a tool, not a crutch.

As an instructor, I love being able to pick up a laser-equipped firearm and demonstrate why the shots are going low when someone yanks a trigger, or show them the circle of safety drawn by the muzzle in compressed low ready, or prove that position Sul doesn't actually point at any body parts -- nor come near to doing so -- when done correctly. I love being able to take a laser-equipped dummy gun and show exactly which body parts are at risk during a sloppy draw or a clumsy-stupid two hand reholster. It's a great teaching tool.

pax
 
I've found it perfect for my KelTec PLR-16; thought so from the beginning, but had to prove it to myself. This is definitely a laser kind of gun. Now, I'm going to get a decent one.
 
1) POI and laser dot can be off by as much as 3" at 25 yards.
2) Lasers need batteries.
3) Lasers will not help with proper trigger pull. So, essentially it only helps
people who don't need help.
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In order:
1. It's not bullseye shooting. For combat use that is just fine for almost all problems. If it is not, you still have the iron sights.
2. Flashlights need batteries. Cell phones need batteries. Lots of things need batteries. Yet we use them regularly and expect them to work. Lasers are no different.
3. Iron sights, scopes, etc. will not help with proper trigger pull either. Trigger pull is completley separate from the sights used.

The laser is an effective tool. Most of the folks who bad-mouth them or talk about the "problems" have not had proper training in how to utilize them. Most of the folks who have been trained with them don't take them off their guns.
 
They slow you down in sunlight. If you're silly enough to try to use a laser in daylight you deserve what you get.
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they obviously dont have the same effective range in bright daylight.but one example that comes to mind where they can be very usefull is at close range shooting from the gut...where you cant fully present and weapon retention is high priority.a postition which would normally offer no form of sighting at all.some would say you need no sighting in such a situation,but i fail to see anything but benefits to having that feedback.
 
Daylight effectiveness of a laser is typically only a factor in the cheaper units or at ranges WELL BEYOND anything in SD. A good laser will be visible in daylight, maybe not blazing sunshine, at 100yds and if your shooting at anything like that distance you've always got your sights.
 
peetza said:
Daylight effectiveness of a laser is typically only a factor in the cheaper units or at ranges WELL BEYOND anything in SD. A good laser will be visible in daylight, maybe not blazing sunshine, at 100yds and if your shooting at anything like that distance you've always got your sights.
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But at 100 yards, the laser will be off by as much as a foot from POI. That's
an entire ground hog! :eek:

:p
 
But at 100 yards, the laser will be off by as much as a foot from POI. That's
an entire ground hog!
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True but if it's a cheapy it will be a foot in diameter too!:D

Most of them are adjustable as far as I know. I do wonder about the kind that replace the recoil spring holder bar doodad (that's a technical term, hey I don't own a handgun yet I haven't memorized all the parts:o). I assume they are pointed where they're pointed and thats it.
 
the Lasermax guide rod isnt adjustable and it can be off by up to 2" at the recommended zeroing range right out of the box.ive also heard alot of complaints with them not holding up to heavy use.

But at 100 yards, the laser will be off by as much as a foot from POI.
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if so...only due to trajectory.

im not sure where a dead zero at 25 yards would put you at 100 but...

one method of zeroing is to simply align it with the bore.this will put you off at any range by a small ammount(a little low and to the right with the CTC),but the benefit is that you eliminate cross-over and will always be off by that same ammount(aside from bullet trajectory).

there's a far better description given here...

Ideally, you zero your CTC Lasergrips just like you'd zero any other off-axis laser like a PEQ-2 or ATPIAL. On a Glock, the CTC laser is roughly 0.5" to the right of the bore and 1.0" below the bore. If you zero your laser to hit 0.5" to the right of your POI, it will "always" be 0.5" right of the POI. By the time you hit 10 yards, the 0.5" offset gets absorbed in the group size. Basically, your laser "should" run dead parallel to your boreline. This prevents crossover at any range and your horizontal offset will never exceed the original 0.5".

Crossover is the real enemy here. With the laser being on the right side of the pistol, if you zero at 25 yards, the laser will be further and further to the right anywhere past your zero distance. The closer the zero, the further it will be off axis as the range increases. This off-axis laser v. boreline will be far worse than the original 0.5" offset zero.

The elevation doesn't really matter. We are always dealing with elevation issues because of iron sight offset and trajectory. However, the further off you zero, the more consistant your hold-off. IE, zero at 25 yards (with the 0.5" offset) and the POI will always be above the laser dot out to 25 yards. If you zero at 50 yards, the laser dot will always be under the POI to 50 yards (absent trajecory issues).

Also, the further out you zero, the more you minimize the laser to bore angles. This prevents the crossover issue and simplifies life signficantly.

Zero at the maximum range that you expect to use the pistol. For me, I zero everything including J frames at 25 yards.
David Pennington
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http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14785&highlight=crimson+trace
 
Lasers are tools. Useful within their limitations (sometimes incredibly so).

If you are a bad shot, you'll still be a bad shot with a laser.

As pax noted, they make great instructional training aids.

One thing they are useful for is tiered escalation of force. We find that roping visible lasers frequently gets the attention of Iraqis we'd rather not shoot. There are many non-enemy Darwin Award Candidates over here who will drive/walk right into audible gunfire or verbal commands. They tend to freeze, pull over, or retreat indoors after getting splashed by lasers. It saves everyone a lot of unwanted drama.
 
One thing they are useful for is tiered escalation of force. We find that roping visible lasers frequently gets the attention of Iraqis we'd rather not shoot. There are many non-enemy Darwin Award Candidates over here who will drive/walk right into audible gunfire or verbal commands. They tend to freeze, pull over, or retreat indoors after getting splashed by lasers. It saves everyone a lot of unwanted drama.
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Amazing they can be so dumb and in a third world country and still know what a laser means. You'd think by the time they knew about lasers they'd be dead if they were that stupid.
 
Sholling said: They're a self defense tool and we have discussed on here 8 zillion times

Concur. I have Crimson Trace grips on three of my four handguns. They aren't made for my JC Higgins .22 revolver or my wife's .380 Colt Pocket Model, or else they would have them too. At 77, I am happy to grab any handle that gives me an edge. I shoot weekly at my range, half iron sights and half CT laser. Therefore I know that lasers help me.

Another point. According to some, cats love to chase the red dot, but I doubt if perps would notice the red dot dancing on their chests. They will be looking at 1) the weapon in my hand, or 2) the dazzling red light on it.

It is so easy to reject new things. The first time I tried my first CT-equipped revolver, I was stunned at how the red dot danced all over the place. Then I realized, "Hey, that's me doing that, not the laser!" The red dot still wanders, but I concentrate on trigger pull and let nature take care of the rest. I throw a few, but I usually put most of my rounds into the nine ring of a #24 target at seven yards. I'm happy.

Cordially, Jack
 
I'm think'n to myself, "What is the probability that if/when I get into a SD shooting it will happen after sunset?" I'm not suggesting that I can walk around in condition white between sunrise and sunset, but in all likelihood, the SHTF after the sun goes down. That's the time when the laser sight really shines (good pun, huh?). I like'm and I'm use'n them but they are not the solution to every problem.
 
My Kimber came with CTs. After some problems with the laser CT replaced them because of a bad diode. This set has been on for over a year now and the laser is strong as ever.
The main reason I got the CTs is my eyes are getting older (or my arms are getting shorter!) and I don't focus as well as I used to. Three dot night sights are getting blurry. The video that comes with the grips is very informative.
However, I have read some things presented as facts by the authors (I don't know if they are true) that give me reason to be very glad that I have these grips.
I am not LE. I don't have the same level of training as LEOs. I'm just an average guy with an average life. The articles I've read state that LEOs in a sudden deadly threat situation miss the threat target up to 85% of rounds fired from 7yds or less. I have watched videos of LEOs in a sudden fight pull thier weapon and start firing one handed, looking over the top of the gun never using the sights. Some of these officers have 20yrs or so of training.
I go to the outdoor range and practice firing one handed, from the hip, from behind a telephone pole, while seated at a bench, etc. All with the laser on as I feel it would be in a sudden deadly situation. I doubt I will have time to draw my weapon and bring it up in a nice two handed grip picking up the front sight as I drive it toward the target and squeeze the trigger with the threat lunging at me or pulling a weapon from 5yds. or closer, or worse yet already be in bad breath range or already on the ground. But the chances are good that I might see that red dot on him somewhere.
 
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