RT you are right the gun was designed for premium defensive ammo, I got to shoot a few Solo's with the kimber reps and we were running 115gr round nose ammo just fine... however these were test range guns with high round counts and the reps made sure to tell us that these werethe exception to the rule, and people should stick with the hollor point 124gr ammo, but if you break in the gun well enough it will probably shoot the 115 round nose fine.
Are Kimbers More Reliable Now?
- Thread starter JJNA
- Start date
Because I was not convinced the gun would be 100%. And the cost of "fixing" properly would have approached the price of a new gun (or at least a large fraction of it). The gunsmith didn't mind as much, I suppose, because he worked on it himself and did not have to pay someone else for the repairs.
I just thought that was quite a rotten service from Kimber. It made me pay for the initial shipping cost and didn't even fix the gun, and then I ended up losing a few hundred dollars when I sold it at a loss. I just didn't want to keep sending it back and keep incurring shipping costs.
I next bought a Springfield "Loaded" (the older model). The gun worked pretty well, but the ergonomics was so so and the radiusing was nonexistent. I had the gunsmith round all the edges, and it has been a fine, reliable range gun since then. I am actually thinking about sending it to Springfield for the "radical melt" treatment (and a short trigger, an arched mainspring housing, and finally a more angled hammer).
In the mean time, I am trying to decide between either a Kimber Custom II or a Pro Carry HD II on the one hand and Ruger SR1911/SR1911 Commander on the other. Another contender is Dan Wesson Heritage or even a Valor, but since it will be a range gun, I wonder whether there is a point to spending the extra money for a Dan Wesson.
I will say out of the ones you mentioned the Dan Wesson Valor or V-bob hands down. As much as I liked my Kimbers, Springers ect. The Dan Wessons are FANTASTIC.
They suffered a fire, but came back strong, and the new examples are just as sweet as they have ever been. The Vbob or their Gaurdian might be one of my next 1911's.
Check out STI also... I love mine I have the 5.0 SS (single stack not stainless steel) 9mm 5.0 Tactical with the full rail. I swapped grips to VZ thin grips, put a WC magwell flat MSH, and a STI short trigger in it. That gun is like shooting a type writer.
As for your Springer, that has always been my experience with the few Mil-spec's and Loadeds I owned... however my Lightweight Champion Operator and my TRP were great guns. The mil specs and loaded's were mostly good guns, but as you said the final finishing can be a little rough at times. Only mjaor issue I was was with a loaded model, the slide stop pin was fitted a little too loose, and would walk out and sieze the slide. Luckily I work as a paper pusher for gun smiths so I had one of the dimple the flat end of the slide stop so the detent sat into it deeper (you see this on WC's and other high end 1911's often) and solved that issue.
I will say SA's customer service is one of the BEST in the industry to deal with.
As for your question about Kimber's having different fitting.... it is kind of a yes and no answer. Kimber... unlike SA does not have a true Custom Shop. The Custom Shop designation on the slide of a higher end Kimber supposedly means the slide and frame were picked and kept together through the entire process, where as the Custom II's and other "mid to low self" models are just tolerance stacked parts bin builds like most other firearms. Hope that helps.
They suffered a fire, but came back strong, and the new examples are just as sweet as they have ever been. The Vbob or their Gaurdian might be one of my next 1911's.
Check out STI also... I love mine I have the 5.0 SS (single stack not stainless steel) 9mm 5.0 Tactical with the full rail. I swapped grips to VZ thin grips, put a WC magwell flat MSH, and a STI short trigger in it. That gun is like shooting a type writer.
As for your Springer, that has always been my experience with the few Mil-spec's and Loadeds I owned... however my Lightweight Champion Operator and my TRP were great guns. The mil specs and loaded's were mostly good guns, but as you said the final finishing can be a little rough at times. Only mjaor issue I was was with a loaded model, the slide stop pin was fitted a little too loose, and would walk out and sieze the slide. Luckily I work as a paper pusher for gun smiths so I had one of the dimple the flat end of the slide stop so the detent sat into it deeper (you see this on WC's and other high end 1911's often) and solved that issue.
I will say SA's customer service is one of the BEST in the industry to deal with.
As for your question about Kimber's having different fitting.... it is kind of a yes and no answer. Kimber... unlike SA does not have a true Custom Shop. The Custom Shop designation on the slide of a higher end Kimber supposedly means the slide and frame were picked and kept together through the entire process, where as the Custom II's and other "mid to low self" models are just tolerance stacked parts bin builds like most other firearms. Hope that helps.
Can't really speak to Kimber's overall reliability with a sample base of only 4 that have been out to our farm for practice sessions with friends; but all four had to go back, eventually, after suffering through Kimber's initial response: "they're so tightly fitted that 200-300 rounds are necessary to break them in"..."call us again when you've spent the added cost of that ammunition". I guess that means the gun'll fix itself in place of a real quality control dept. at the factory.
I will however, give Kimber kudos for the most reliable advertising I've ever seen. You can take it to the bank that they'll have at least two full page spreads in every American Rifleman.
I'd recommend you save your money and yourself some aggravation and get a Springfield or Ruger....the "ergonomics" are the same...hell they're 1911's. Both offer real time help in the rare event you need to use their customer service.
I own and regularly shoot both the full size and the all steel Ruger CMD 1911's...like 'em both, but that new alloy frame model definitely looks good from a daily carry point of view...plus if you need customer service...but we've covered that already. I've carried the CMD Ruger but it is a heavy piece to tote around for an 8 hour shift. The alloy frame would make it doable from my experience.
BTW, my experience with Sig's CS was first rate. My Sig 1911 RCS (an alloy frame 1911 with a 4" bbl. and an "Offecer's Model" grip lenth) needed feed ramp work. Sig acknowledged the problem in a 5 minute phone call, sent me a FEDEX shipping lablel and I had the gun back in less than two weeks. No cost whatsoever...should it have gone out that way...hell no...but they fixed the problem in good time and with a cheerful attitude. Say's a lot about a company, I'd say.
Rod
I will however, give Kimber kudos for the most reliable advertising I've ever seen. You can take it to the bank that they'll have at least two full page spreads in every American Rifleman.
I'd recommend you save your money and yourself some aggravation and get a Springfield or Ruger....the "ergonomics" are the same...hell they're 1911's. Both offer real time help in the rare event you need to use their customer service.
I own and regularly shoot both the full size and the all steel Ruger CMD 1911's...like 'em both, but that new alloy frame model definitely looks good from a daily carry point of view...plus if you need customer service...but we've covered that already. I've carried the CMD Ruger but it is a heavy piece to tote around for an 8 hour shift. The alloy frame would make it doable from my experience.
BTW, my experience with Sig's CS was first rate. My Sig 1911 RCS (an alloy frame 1911 with a 4" bbl. and an "Offecer's Model" grip lenth) needed feed ramp work. Sig acknowledged the problem in a 5 minute phone call, sent me a FEDEX shipping lablel and I had the gun back in less than two weeks. No cost whatsoever...should it have gone out that way...hell no...but they fixed the problem in good time and with a cheerful attitude. Say's a lot about a company, I'd say.
Rod
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Multiple failure to feed situations, several failure to extract resulting in a smoke stack jam. Guns were in good clean shape during all of this. Ammunition was factory Federal 230 HST? HP and some 230 FMJ Winchester White box. Mag's were switched with known good mags already in my possession. Rod
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I.... do not like Kimbers. As far as 1911s go, I have seen more dissatisfied customers who purchased Kimber than any other brand, including the low end ones like Citadel and Taurus. The 500 round break-in period they recommend is conservative from what I've seen. The majority of the issues purchasers complain about do work themselves out- but 1000-1500 rounds is not unusual before it becomes a reliable gun. I don't get what justifies a Kimber's price tag (well okay, they're very very pretty)... I've had die hard Kimber fans tell me "Oh yeah, once you break it in and fix the angle on the feed ramp and throw a better magazine in there, it works like a dream!" But personally, I'd rather buy a Springfield for $400 less and take it out of the box and have it be awesome. If I were to recommend anything to someone looking for a Kimber, it would be to get a used one. The majority of issues will probably already be worked out for you and the shiney-tax won't be quite as mind-boggling.
Yea, I mean I always see stories online that reflect Rods ordeal and I believe him it's true, my experience with Kimber has been great. After personally owning about 8 different examples of them ranging from the basic custom II to the raptor, and super carry ect, all have been stellar oit of the box. I have also sold 1000s of Kimbers to customers with a pretty average return rate, about on par with Colt, Sig, Springfield.
Everyone makes a lemon, and I always hear horror stories about Kimber, but having sold 1000's of em, owning quite a few, and getting invited to go shoot with their reps once a year, my experience has been good. I also own two of their rifles that have been stellar. I will say their price tag can be rather drastic at times, but one thing their marketing and sales reps will tell you and it's true... Kimbers move based on name alone, people come in and ask to se what Kimbers we have, so people can bash their glossy ads, but I say kudos for them.
Everyone makes a lemon, and I always hear horror stories about Kimber, but having sold 1000's of em, owning quite a few, and getting invited to go shoot with their reps once a year, my experience has been good. I also own two of their rifles that have been stellar. I will say their price tag can be rather drastic at times, but one thing their marketing and sales reps will tell you and it's true... Kimbers move based on name alone, people come in and ask to se what Kimbers we have, so people can bash their glossy ads, but I say kudos for them.
One more question about Kimbers. All companies make lemons (at various rates) and most seem to stand behind their warranties. Ruger has a lifetime service policy that is functionally equivalent to Sig's and Springfield's lifetime warranties.
Why is it that Kimber has only a 1-year warranty, especially when it often asks the consumers to shoot 500 rounds before sending it?
That just seems suspiciously short.
Why is it that Kimber has only a 1-year warranty, especially when it often asks the consumers to shoot 500 rounds before sending it?
That just seems suspiciously short.
HK...you've got a much larger sample base than the 4 individual guns I've seen here on our farm, and as I pointed out, the guys that hauled them out here for a work out were undoubtedly the unfortunate ones who got the lemons.
And I'll also say that any large manufacturing operation, doing business in today's competitive world wide market had better account for every penny of expense in their products. That said, it behooves any gun maker to stand by his product, answer questions via any communications medium and return, replace or fix as is necessary.
For a company who advertises "carry" guns to require an extended break in period is beyond my understanding. How in heck am I ever going to trust a pistol that took several hundred rounds to feed and fire correctly. Just me, but it had better work right out of the box, as advertised, and I'll expect the trigger to smooth up after a box or two...but it had better feed and fire on day one.
JHMO, Rod
And I'll also say that any large manufacturing operation, doing business in today's competitive world wide market had better account for every penny of expense in their products. That said, it behooves any gun maker to stand by his product, answer questions via any communications medium and return, replace or fix as is necessary.
For a company who advertises "carry" guns to require an extended break in period is beyond my understanding. How in heck am I ever going to trust a pistol that took several hundred rounds to feed and fire correctly. Just me, but it had better work right out of the box, as advertised, and I'll expect the trigger to smooth up after a box or two...but it had better feed and fire on day one.
JHMO, Rod
Ruger does not have a life time warranty.... they have NO WRITTEN WARRANTY. Most times 95% of the time they will take care of issues they deem to be their fault. However I have had them send back numerous guns they deemed operator or ammunition error and would not repair them, or they would repair them at cost to the consumer.
On the flip side of that, I have seen Kimber and other companies repair guns for free that were outside their warranty scope.
People assume lifetime warranty means everything is covered no matter what and no matter when, but really it is more of a marketing ploy. Yes some companies are better than others, however I have seen S&W, Ruger, Springfield all charge customers for repairs. S&W's life time warranty is also subject to when they feel like honoring it until. Everyyear or so they send out a list of models they are no longer servicing because they are getting rid of the tooling, the popular model 66 recently being one of them if I remember correctly.
as for the 500 round break it.... it's pretty SOP for most companies to tell consumers that. S&W does it, Sig does it, Springfield does it, Ruger does it, Kahr even put it in their manual. I have even had Glock say it about their most recent models.
Personally and I am not trying to sound smug... but I don't see the cost issue running 500 rounds through a handgun... .338 lapua a different story. I buy guns to shoot them... 500 rounds can sometimes be one range session, specially if it was a gun I just purchased. My father always told me... don't buy the Ferrari unless you can afford the gas.. or the insurance for that matter.
You're going to want to shoot it anyways.. so 500 rounds to me isn't a big deal, even if it is mis-feeding.. just means more practice at clearing malfunctions. You either bought it to shoot, or bought it to be a safe queen... if its the later.. than it doesn't matter if it jams or not lol.Ruger's customer service is 'way better than any warranty. They absolutely do not care if you are the original owner or the tenth owner. I have to believe that examples where Ruger insisted on charging the user represented some pretty serious poor maintenance or use of the gun. For example, I bought a Mark I pistol last year, heavily used, etc. Took it to the range and had problems. I sent it into Ruger, and at no charge they replaced a whole bunch of the innards of the gun, returned it to me a week later at no charge. Can't beat that. God only knows how many people had owned that old pistol before I did.
Rodger I never said their CS was bad... but I was simply correcting a common error in the fact Ruger is not a life time warranty.. they have no written warranty. They will take anything in for a "warranty inspection" and they deem either they will repair it or not.
Most times they will repair it... but I do this for a living, and I have dealt with them numerous times where they will charge the customer, or tell them to take up the repair costs with an ammunition manufacturer.
If you take apart your mark series and cant get it back together (common issue with people new to the design) and send it to Ruger... they will put it back together the right way for you and ship it back.. but they also include a letter saying this was done at a courtesy and if it happens another time they will charge labor.
I have seen both Ruger and S&W Charge customers labor for cleaning. The smith was an older J frame sent in with what the customer thought was a timing issue, turns out it just wasn't properly cared for, S&W wouldn't return ship it until the customer sent payment for a $60 cleaning and test fire fee. Ruger LCR was sent back because the customer claimed the barrel was eroding and he only fired about 100 rounds through it. Ruger claimed the revolver was excessivily shot and was not damaged just dirty, and charged the customer $50 in service fees and returned it with a letter telling the customer to learn proper firearms cleaning methods.
Most times they will repair it... but I do this for a living, and I have dealt with them numerous times where they will charge the customer, or tell them to take up the repair costs with an ammunition manufacturer.
If you take apart your mark series and cant get it back together (common issue with people new to the design) and send it to Ruger... they will put it back together the right way for you and ship it back.. but they also include a letter saying this was done at a courtesy and if it happens another time they will charge labor.
I have seen both Ruger and S&W Charge customers labor for cleaning. The smith was an older J frame sent in with what the customer thought was a timing issue, turns out it just wasn't properly cared for, S&W wouldn't return ship it until the customer sent payment for a $60 cleaning and test fire fee. Ruger LCR was sent back because the customer claimed the barrel was eroding and he only fired about 100 rounds through it. Ruger claimed the revolver was excessivily shot and was not damaged just dirty, and charged the customer $50 in service fees and returned it with a letter telling the customer to learn proper firearms cleaning methods.
banger357 said:
Let's look at this:
Kimbers average sales price is like $1000 + tax and +break in ammo
Break in - 500rnds - $225
1000 rnds - $450
1500 rnds - $675
Hmm for $1500, you can have a far superior DW Valor SS
This math is why I would NEVER waste my money on a Kimber. Sure, there are $800 or $900 Kimbers and their are $1800 Kimbers. . . .They are all the same gun, different finish/metalwork. All look fancy, I guess.
I love DW firearms, specially the Valor and the V-bob.... but when shooting with the CZ reps a year ago I had jams on 2 out of 3 of their valors there that day.. so it isn't just Kimber
Shooting with the Kimber reps, only gun we jammed was the Solo, but we knew it was going to happen because we were trying to run 115gr Remington UMC through it. The Kimbers that day were notably more filthy.
Shooting with the Ruger reps... the SR1911's ran fine.. we broke two SR45's mag releases.
Shooting with Remington / Para... and having owned a Para in the past... yea I will save my money.
Shooting with SA, only gun had had some issues with people was the XDS .45 but I would suspect it was limp wristing.
ect ect ect.
The issue is people get 1 or 2 bad tastes from a company.. or 1 really good one.. and then paste it all over the internet. I deal with a few hundred guns a day, good, bad, ugly, kaboomed, dropped, you name it.
I am NOT saying my word is the only word.. but larger sample sizes or stuff never hurt. I can firmly say in my neck of the woods Kimber as about an equal failure rate as SA, Sig, HK, Colt, ect. Now I work for a dealer so maybe they are nicer when I deal with their CS, but that also brings me to another point. A repair issue on a firearm should first be taken up with the shop who sold it to you. If its a brand new gun with issues, you should let them handle the warranty work / shipping it back, if that shop is unwilling to help you with a gun they just sold you, then i wouldn't shop there.
Which is why I wrote, to repeat:
Ruger has a lifetime service policy that is functionally equivalent to Sig's and Springfield's lifetime warranties.
I understand, HKFan9, you are basically a one-man Kimber apologist here, but it would be helpful if you actually read what I wrote instead of whatever you wished.
I do not have your experience, but I had a bad experience with Kimber and mostly good ones with Kahr, Ruger, Sig, and Springfield, a pattern that seems to be consistent with many opinions on the internet if not with yours.
dakota1911
New member
I have always thought Kimbers were overpriced for what you got and why shouldn't they be? Kimber has had nice glossy full color adds in almost every gun mag out there for years. Usually multiple adds and often the back cover. This is not that bad. I was up to 6 Kimbers at one time and am now down to one. They were not that bad. They were just not that good. The hype works for you also. I have never lost money on a Kimber I kept a few years and then sold. Not as good as Colt, but not horrible. My last Kimber is a Grand Raptor II I bought in 2005 for a little over $1.2K In 2006 I bought a Colt SCG for $1.4K These two pistols are not on the same planet. The SCG will give me 3 inch groups from a Ransom Rest at 50 yards. The Kimber shoots almost as good as a 1988 Colt Gold Cup I bought used for $650 around 2007. I played with the Kimber to the tune of about 2K rounds. Do not shoot it that much any more, but it is pretty.
The reason I am keeping the Grand Raptor is that it is very pretty and it is the only example of a Kimber external extractor in my shooty collection. Actually did not have problems with the external extractor. Would I buy another Kimber? You bet but it would have to be a very early one, thus not a II and in very nice shape.
The reason I am keeping the Grand Raptor is that it is very pretty and it is the only example of a Kimber external extractor in my shooty collection. Actually did not have problems with the external extractor. Would I buy another Kimber? You bet but it would have to be a very early one, thus not a II and in very nice shape.