Are hollow points worth the extra cost in large numbers?

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Hoss Delgado

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I don't know a whole lot about handguns, so bear with me here. I understand that, bullet for bullet, a hollow point is going to be more effective than FMJ. In small numbers hollow points make more sense, but in large numbers there's an issue of cost. So let's say I'm stockpiling ammo for an invasion of hippies, zombies, hippie zombies, zombie hippies, or something of that nature. In that case, would I be better off having more rounds of less deadly FMJ, or less rounds of more deadly hollow points? And if the caliber is a factor, let's say 9mm, but I'm curious in general.
 
A FMJ is not less deadly than a JHP.

I rather have left over ammo rather than having no ammo so either way its a plus to have more ammo. I did a run of 1000 FMJ 40s that I reloaded and now I'm waiting on a shipment of 1000 JHP 40s to come in so I can reload those. Have both I say in your case.

IMHO I prefer FMJ because I consider it more lethal of a round. I will most always penetrate to be deadly. It will more than likely sever something cuz it will be deep enough or go right through to do damage.

Of course you have the trade off. JHP have knock down power. They will know they got hit because they WILL be on their butt/back/face. Then again a FMJ feeds a lot better than JHP so again another trade off.

If your preparing for Zombies I would stick with the FMJ and Mass produce them. Never know if you are going to be shooting through a wall/car/door/horde of dead people/ or whatever it may be.

so happy zombie hunting
 
I say if you are independently wealthy that you should have more JHP's than FMJ. If you are like me and poor then I have about 100 JHP's and about 500 FMJ for every gun I have.
 
Carry ammo gets dinged up and needs to be replaced with fresh from time to time. How much you have in stock is up to you, and will apparently be based on how much it costs.:cool:
 
FMJ/JHP

I don't believe any of that is true. "Knock down power" is a myth first off. No handgun round is going to knock you down. Want knock down power get a shot gun and put slugs in it.
FMJ rounds are not more deadly then JHP. If you are firing a JHP in a situation where it is under powered like it is a small caliber or from a very short barrel into someone heavily clothed yeah it may not penetrate enough. FMJ rounds have a long history at being bad at stopping people even in 45s. I would rather take my chance with a JHP that will create a larger wound more likely to stop someone sooner then depend on a FMJ round that MAY under some circumstances have better penetration but is far less likely to do as much damage. Heck you could always put one JHP and then several FMJ rounds in your mag.
If you are stocking up on ammo do a 9-1. Buy one box of JHP for every nine boxes of FMJ. That way you always have a good supply of ammo for every occasion and enough FMJ/cheaper stuff for practice and the range.
 
IBTL
well, in direct response to your post, for a zombie, its all about shot placement. have to take out the cereberal cortex, the part of the brain that controls motor functions. a fmj or jhp will both do the trick.

if you were to shoot a zombie center mass 5 times with either round, not gonna make a difference

and yes, stocking up 1k JHP over 1k fmj is gonna be a significant difference in price. at my store, i can get 50 FMj for 12, while i can get 50 JHP for 40 (2 boxes of 25 for $20 each) so blowing that up to 1k rounds, you get

$240 for 1000 FMJ
and
$800 for 1000 JHP

I mean, its america, and you can do what you want, but id buy FMJ and use that $560 to buy another gun.

ALSO
with 1000 rounds of JHP, your exposure to lead greatly increases since they are exposed. but i dunno about that
 
I would like to add a note to my earliar statement.

I reload to practice and have enough ammo for $***s and giggles, and my reloads are never used in my everyday carry nor my duty weapon. I will always buy a box or two of ammo for liability purposes.

but if you plan on stock piling and shooting look into reloading. get a small lee loader 40 bucks and load 50 rounds on an off night. I got a Dillon 650 right out the gates and I load about 500 rounds (taking time) an hour with it. I also have a small dillon C press and a hand press for off calibers or for preparing brass infront of the Tube.

In february I went from just a duty weapon to over 13 handed down weapons from father and grandfather. I reload for all except the 6mm and I have enough for some good long practice sessions.

make friends at local gun ranges and LEOs to collect the brass and then its gravy from there. My 40 Brass is free so I make the rounds at approx $0.17 a round. Thats JHP or FMJ. They run almost the same in price. Like 5 dollars in price difference per 1000 bullets

well have fun
 
As a general rule, it is always better to have some ammo than no ammo.

With Zombies, virtually any shot to the brain is fatal so HP ammo doesn't give you an advantage there.

With anyone else, nobody wants to get shot. Most people are going to run for it and you just keep shooting those who don't until they are no longer a threat. FMJ isn't the best, but it works. HP would be good to have not only for safety to bystanders, but for its greater effectiveness against BGs. You might have to shoot someone at close range and need every advantage you can get to stop the threat ASAP.

I do exactly as you do, a little of HP and mostly FMJ. The logic I use is that if a crisis where lead starts flying is short term, the small amount of HP will last me through and provide a noticeable advantage. If a crisis where lead is flying turns out to be long term, then whoever still has ammo is going to be much better off.

This is why I also like to have 22s that are at least serviceable as a fighting weapon. (My 10/22's, Marlin 60's, and Ruger MKII's fill this role.) I have tons of 22 rimfire and it will be the last caliber to become unavailable. The person with the 22 rimfire and 3k of ammo is going to outgun the person with the tricked out AR-10 and no ammo.

It is also a reason for pistol caliber carbines. Even during the height of the latest "shortage" most common pistol ammo was easier to get than the rifle calibers.

Of course if someone offered you 1,000 rounds of FMJ or 1,000 rounds of HP you would of course go with the HP. I do that with the bulk 7.62x39. (Yes I know it isn't "real" HP, but from testing it on different mediums, the HP deforms much better and more reliably than the FMJ.)

Now, I reload my own ammo and cast my own bullets so I have more ammo overall, but much less of it is HP. (Though lead bullets do deform and act like HP in some circumstances.) For people I know who like to have a good stock of ammo, the amount of HP as total stock generally falls between 5-15%. There is no "set" ratio. It all depends on your situation. I personally am probably below the 5% ratio on most of my calibers because I have so much reloaded ammo on hand.

What I think IS generally accepted is that if you are preparing for a SHTF scenario you should have at least 500-1,000 rounds of ammo for your primary gun, be it HP or FMJ. This should be enough to get you through the most likely ones with plenty of ammo to spare. (Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.) I'm not saying that you start skipping meals to get the ammo, just set it as a goal and over time work your way to that goal.
 
In a real SHTF situation, most of your shooting SHOULD be hunting. If otherwise, you're in the wrong place. And FMJ is usually adequate, if you're willing to track something that's bleeding.

The other thing is, if things are bad enough and medical tech degrades by about a century or so, any bullet becomes what minor-power stuff was in the 19th century: a threat of slow death by infection, esp. on a gut hit.

Upshot: if things are bad enough, I'd rather have 200rds of hardball (of at least 9mm power or better) than 100rds of super-quality JHP.
 
Absolutely, yes

Hoss Delgado said:
Are hollow points worth the extra cost in large numbers?
I don't know a whole lot about handguns, so bear with me here. I understand that, bullet for bullet, a hollow point is going to be more effective than FMJ. In small numbers hollow points make more sense, but in large numbers there's an issue of cost. So let's say I'm stockpiling ammo for an invasion of hippies, zombies, hippie zombies, zombie hippies, or something of that nature. In that case, would I be better off having more rounds of less deadly FMJ, or less rounds of more deadly hollow points? And if the caliber is a factor, let's say 9mm, but I'm curious in general.
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Hoss, welcome to the forum and welcome to handguns (I expect you are contemplating getting one soon, hence your question.)

It appears your question is focused solely on social shooting (people to people), so I will ignore the relative merits of expanding bullets vs solids on thin-skinned vs thick-skinned game.

One quote I cannot reference, but fully believe is, "More men have been killed with the 9mm than any other handgun round." Probably true because there have been more 9mm handgun rounds fired (mostly in wartime, but also in police work) world-wide than any other. And these have been mostly full-metal jacket.

So, why choose hollowpoints?

In a civilian shooting situation, your goal is not to kill, but to make the perpetrator of an act, stop that act. Hollowpoints are more effective at that, and less lethal, as a bonus.

To make a man stop doing whatever it is that made shooting him justified, it may take multiple hits from a round that (again, a quote I cannot reference, sorry) "a 9mm, round nose slug will pass through tissue with with little tissue damage and very little bleeding, thus, often it will take multiple hits to show any effect." On the other hand, an expanding bullet will produce a great deal of immediate effect.

So, a single hit with a HP (or ther expanding bullet) is likely to produce the desired effect where multiple hits with FMJ are required to produce the same effect.

Then there is the lethality effect. Multiple hits with FMJ are more likely to be lethal (although time-delayed) than a single hit with a hollowpoint, provided medical attention is timely.

This is why police departments use hollowpoints. More effective AND less lethal.

Here's my recipe. Practice with cheap ammo (cast lead solids, round nose fully plated or jacketed bullets) that performs similarly to the ammo I choose for actual defense. Fire the "real" ammo enough to keep my familiarization current and to rotate my stock (replacing old ammo with new), and fire lots and lots of "practice" ammo.

The cost of ammo is not so great (when compared to the cost of a gun, practice, training & education, etc.) that I would use less effective ammo when my life is on the line. Very likely, if you actually shoot someone out of necessity, the cost of all the hollowpoints you have ever fired will be the least costly element of the whole experience. I fire about 25 rounds of "practice" ammo for every one of "real" ammo.

So, to sum up.

I choose hollowpoints because they are less lethal than solids, for their effectiveness. I choose hollowpoints because they are more effective than anything else. I disregard the cost of hollowpoints because one or two dollars apiece is cheap, compared to life.

Caveat: Not everyone believes HP produces more effective stopping power than FMJ. Not everyone agrees that HPs are less lethal. So, expect argument in this forum on those points. I don't believe either question has be settled completely, but it has been settled in my mind, though I am open to new information.

On another point. It is often said that a particular round has "knock-down power". Yes, a big slug at 1300 fps can knock over a steel ram or a send a bowling pin flying off a table, but no handgun slug can knock a 200 lb person off their feet. The physics just are not there. When you see a person fly up in the air from being hit by a bullet (or even a shotgun blast) it is a massive muscle flinch caused by the shock reaction of being hit. In the movies they do it with cables and a harness.

Lost Sheep

Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.
 
My answer to the OP's question is no. It is a good idea to have enough defensive type ammo (generally hollow points) on hand to survive either short term shortages like we've just seen or for a shtf situation. But, do you really expect to need more than 100 to 200 rounds of hollow point pistol ammo? In that kind of situation, your rifle is your best friend. And if you run short of hollow point pistol ammo, FMJ ammo in most calibers of .380 and up will continue to be quite effective.
 
I say if you are independently wealthy that you should have more JHP's than FMJ. If you are like me and poor then I have about 100 JHP's and about 500 FMJ for every gun I have.
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You don't have to be independently wealthy. Ever price out Fed. HST on line? Don't know if it's still available, but 100 rds. isn't all that expensive. If nothing else, generic Walmart HP's are better than nothing--when they start stocking up again.
 
What's a large number?

Hoss Delgado said:
Are hollow points worth the extra cost in large numbers?
(truncated for focus)
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When I carry outside the house, I generally carry 10 rounds (for my SP101), 5 in the chambers and a reload. Even if hollowpoins were $10 apiece and the increase in effectiveness very small, I would spend the extra money. Cheap insurance. And its not like the money invested in the bullets is gone if I don't use them. It only costs the $10 to $100 if I save a life or prevent grievous bodily harm. If I don't fire the bullets, I've still got them.

If I am going into a situation where I might need more than 5 or 10 rounds, I would carry more (and a different gun), but most of my extra ammo would be carried by an extra person, preferably a police officer serving some kind of warrant or a security guy protecting bags of money or whatnot.

To paraphrase a popular saying, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you have already committed several tactical errors."

Lost Sheep
 
If you plan correctly you don't need a large supply of HPs. Choose your HPs and FMJs of the same weight, and if possible from the same manufacture, so the velocity will be ~ equal (check it with a chronograph to be sure). You can now do your training, speed drills etc., with the FMJs and finish your practice with a small amount of HPs so you are square on with the muzzle flash and blast if there is any difference. I try and keep 1K of factory for my SD pistols, usually 800 FMJs and 200 HPs. Then I have a metric ton of reloads. If you need more than that it's a SHTF situation, and you'll be using rifles and shotguns more than handguns. My SD pistol choices would be .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .44 Magnum (for my 5 1/2" SS Ruger Redhawk though the choice here is lead SWC and HPs) and .45 ACP. I have a S&W Model 25-5 in .45 Colt that was my last duty revolver and it has never seen anything but lead bullets. With the .45 Colt throwing out a 255 gn .454 diameter lead slug at 950 fps, you don't need a HP.:p That's pretty much the case with the .45 ACP, as the people I saw shot with the 1911 in the Mekong were dealt with pretty well with the standard 230 gn GI ball ammunition. I only saw one that took two rounds to put down, and that, oddly enough, was an old woman who was trying to shoot me in the back with a malfunctioning .38 Special Colt Commando. If the bullet diameter is .40 or greater, the bullet weight over 200 grains, and velocity in the 900 to 1000 fps range, it should work on most people without having to expand much.:)

Dr. Raoul Duke
Forever Gonzo
 
In a real SHTF situation, most of your shooting SHOULD be hunting. If otherwise, you're in the wrong place. And FMJ is usually adequate, if you're willing to track something that's bleeding.
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I used to think like that, the problem with such logic is that it is very remote that society will break down completely and everyone is going to take to the woods and live on their own. Humans evolved to live in societies, not on their own. Trying to live in the wild on your own has a high mortality rate and most people will be better off trying to make the best of a bad situation.

I see a serious economic downturn as the more likely. In all likelihood, you are still going to have to get up and go to work, if you still have a job, go to the store and bribe the cashier to fill your order first when the truck arrives, buy gas when the stations have it, etc.

If you do loose your job you will probably have to move in with family or friends and spend the day with a newspaper in one hand, combing the help wanted ads, and a shotgun in the other, making sure nobody breaks in to steal your supply of baked beans.

Police budgets will be slashed, meaning fewer police, more crime, and even slower response times. They won't bother to respond to or try to solve minor property crimes.

The other thing is, if things are bad enough and medical tech degrades by about a century or so, any bullet becomes what minor-power stuff was in the 19th century: a threat of slow death by infection, esp. on a gut hit.
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That is a grim reality.
 
A FMJ is not less deadly than a JHP.
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Hogwash!!! Particularly with handgun ammo, FMJ's have very little effect on game. Same will hold true with self defense. Yes, you want full penetration but you also want some tissue damage along the way, not just a clean hole poked. A good cast semi-wadcutter is an entirely different story but anybody who thinks roundnose FMJ's are just as good as expanding projectiles when they meet flesh has not killed anything with them. Or should I say, tried to.
 
With proper shot placement in a vital zone, very few varmints on either 2 or 4 legs will know the difference between being hit with FMJ or hollowpoints. Shot placement is the key. In the vital zones (brain, spine, heart), a high velocity 40 grain .22LR roundnose bullet out of a rifle is deadly at close range, even on deer sized game.

That being said, I like hollowpoints in my CF handguns, as they are better small game rounds, as in theory they expand and cause more tissue damage. No one shoots 100% all the time, and when hunting I want to stop the game ASAP, even if my shot is a little off. Of course most small game should be shot in the head, either to save the pelt or the meat.
 
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Hoss . . .

With respect, I believe you may have neglected an important point. The ammunition design you select should be directly applicable for its SPECIFIC function. To illustrate, you might appropriately use a lead cast-core round for hunting some animals, a FMJ for target and plinking work, and a quality JHP for self-defense. Therefore -- unless you can afford that same top-quality JHP for your extensive target practice -- a reasonable approach might be to shoot lots of decent FMJs to practice, with occasional additional practice with the same top-tier JHP you plan to employ for self defense. As a final note, at least in your novice period, I would attempt to use practice FMJs from the same manufacturer and with the same weight/muzzle velocity, in order to closely replicate what you will experience (accuracy, recoil, etc.) with your defensive loads.
 
The answer to ammo cost is reloading. Of course there is the initial acquisition cost of the equipment but if you shoot very much it will pay for itself soon enough. Aside for the cost savings reloading is fun. I load lead cast bullets for the range and JHP's for self defense. I know, I know. Some say to use only factory JHP's for self defense due to liability issues but I don't buy that argument. Everything I load in JHP is at or below muzzle velocities of factory ammo. Bottom line, reloading saves enough money that you should be able to keep plenty of all kinds of ammo on hand.
 
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