Are fully automatic weapons legal?
- Thread starter RB_Kandy
- Start date
Bad example.
Olofson screwed up all right, but not with a trigger job.
The gun in question had a three-position selector as well as other parts and modifications that suggested it was intended to "malfunction" in exactly the manner that it did.
In addition, Olofson was or had been in the business of selling information on how to convert that particular firearm to full automatic.
Olofson also posted extensively on arfcom indicating that he intended to argue the case based on his claim that the feds had no jurisdiction in the case. He stated that defense had worked for him in federal court before. He had no intention, apparently, of trying to prove that the gun was simply exhibiting an unintentional malfunction.
It's possible he was railroaded over a screwed up trigger job, but, if so, it would be hard to find an innocent man who worked harder to make himself look guilty than Olofson did.
ScottRiqui
New member
I never found anything definitive saying that the "malfunction" was intentional, but to the government's case, it didn't matter - one trigger pull resulting in multiple discharges equals "machine gun", even if it's due to a malfunction.
To lend credence to the "unintentional" nature of the multiple discharges, supposedly the ATF tech couldn't duplicate the issue until he switched to some soft-primered ammunition.
To lend credence to the "unintentional" nature of the multiple discharges, supposedly the ATF tech couldn't duplicate the issue until he switched to some soft-primered ammunition.
Maybe - or, just enlist. Choose combat arms, and you get to eat, sleep, bathe, and otherwise live with your new automatic spouse.
Another method would be to train, become an LEO, and have those responsible in your jurisdiction simply get them from Uncle Sam and issue it to you.
I shot my issue M16, M16A1, and M16A2 for 22 years, had a lot of fun with it. I also got to shoot the M60, M249, M2, and Mk17. Likely there will be a bit less live fire for familiarization floating around in the future, when I was in a Reserve MP unit, we fired twice annually, and active duty four times a year.
Go MP, when you get out, finish up with Police Academy, and you get full auto for life, it seems. Fair? Too bad, it's the law.
I really don't care about the inequity - I don't have to feed, safeguard, and protect it now. It gets old.
kilimanjaro
New member
Just read about a case where a disconnector failed, the ATF is prosecuting that as illegal possession of a full auto.
22-rimfire
New member
Any semi-auto rifle that somehow turns into a full auto needs to go to the gunsmith immediately. SKS's had that problem with two or three round bursts. Occasionally you hear of a 22 rifle that will shoot a burst. In which case, it is either broke or very dirty (or both).
But fully automatic rifles and handguns are legal if you live in a state that allows them (aka "machine gun state"), willing to pay the extremely high price tag, and willing to wade through the paperwork.
To the OP, all you need to do is go to the machine gun shoot in Knob Creek KY and you will see many full auto firearms in action. It is a very big deal. You will also see other military hardware in action there that do not have explosive "tips".
But fully automatic rifles and handguns are legal if you live in a state that allows them (aka "machine gun state"), willing to pay the extremely high price tag, and willing to wade through the paperwork.
To the OP, all you need to do is go to the machine gun shoot in Knob Creek KY and you will see many full auto firearms in action. It is a very big deal. You will also see other military hardware in action there that do not have explosive "tips".
Very true. I knew a guy who'd done a shade-tree trigger job on his 1911, resulting in hammer follow. He thought it was funny that the gun would double- and triple-tap. That was before he wrecked the locking lugs and sear.
Many semiautomatic firearms will have serious issues if fired fully auto.
That said, somehow inducing the condition is technically manufacturing an NFA weapon without a license, and that's an easy (and prestigious) bust for a wary ATF agent.
22-rimfire
New member
The BATFE gets very excited when they get an informant about someone owning an unlicensed fully automatic firearm.
I read the guy's own posts on arfcom. He wasn't even interested in mounting a defense based on whether or not the gun was shooting full auto intentionally or not. Like I said, he wasn't concerned with that aspect at all because he was going to argue that the feds had no jurisdiction in the case. He was going to use that defense because he said it had worked for him before in federal court. (Emphasis added this time.)
Said a different way, he was arguing that what he had done to the rifle was immaterial because the feds had no jurisdiction to prosecute him. That might be a good point, but it definitely takes this case out of the realm of "a bad trigger job sent this guy to jail". That is not what happened. I read the entire 2 year thread over on arfcom and he never once claimed that he was being railroaded over a screwed up trigger job. He just claimed that the feds didn't have the right to prosecute him for what happened.
FURTHERMORE, he wasn't actually prosecuted because the gun was firing full auto, he was prosecuted for loaning a gun that was known to fire full auto to someone else. In other words, it wasn't even an issue of whether that the gun was malfunctioning or intentionally modified. What was at issue was that he KNEW it was firing full auto and instead of having it fixed, he loaned it out in an attempt to sell it.
Here is how you avoid Olofson's plight.
1. Don't have a history of selling material on how to convert the gun in question to full auto.
2. Don't get in trouble with the feds repeatedly for firearms issues.
3. Don't build your gun with full auto parts like 3 position selectors, etc.
4. Don't modify your gun internally in a way that suggests that you intended it to fire full auto.
5. (This is the really important one.) If you know a gun fires full auto (regardless of the reason), don't loan it to someone and hint that it might fire full auto. Instead, immediately disable it (take it apart) and make sure it is repaired as soon as possible.
Here's a post that is enlightening. Unfortunately some of the attachments no longer work. Originally they were evidence submissions/affidavits from the trial.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4664310#post4664310
The bottom line is that it is completely inaccurate to characterize Olofson as an innocent guy who went to jail because his rifle broke or because he screwed up a trigger job.
To be precise, he went to jail because he loaned a firearm that was known to fire full auto to someone. The evidence strongly suggests that he intentionally modified it to perform in that manner, but that's really not the primary issue. He would have been home free if he had done what a rational, law abiding person would do once they discovered that they had a gun that sometimes fired full auto. That is, break it down and immediately either take it to a gunsmith for repair or destroy and dispose of the damaged parts.
What he did instead was try to sell it to someone and while they were evaluating it, they got caught with it and turned Olofson in.
Here are a couple more sources on the Olofson incident.
The first is the thread in which he blabbed about the whole thing on AR15.com. Rule of thumb: if I'm being indicted by the ATF, it's probably best to lawyer up and shut up, not tell the world about it.
Sebastian also has a good round-up of things.
GOA and JPFO both tarnished their credibility when they came out prematurely to castigate the NRA for not supporting Olofson.
The first is the thread in which he blabbed about the whole thing on AR15.com. Rule of thumb: if I'm being indicted by the ATF, it's probably best to lawyer up and shut up, not tell the world about it.
Sebastian also has a good round-up of things.
GOA and JPFO both tarnished their credibility when they came out prematurely to castigate the NRA for not supporting Olofson.
Fishing_Cabin
New member
tirod said:
I dont know of anywhere that just being a LEO gives someone the right or responsibility for "full auto for life" and if you know different please feel free to let us know.
A LEO can have a full auto, or select fire firearm, post 86, for on duty use. There are no other exceptions that I am aware of for a LEO to have a full auto or select fire firearm otherwise, without having to go through the legal paperwork and paying the price that any other person will have to go through.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you guys. While I agree that today AR-15 is synonymous with the semi-auto version of the M-16 and that's what most people think of, the originals were Full Auto and marked as AR-15's
Case in point the Colt 601
Interesting, but I'd have to put that into the realm of trivia as opposed to really changing the general classification of the AR-15 as a semi-automatic rifle.
There are some full-auto AR-15s that were converted to full auto, and apparently even some that were made that way originally many years ago, but when people talk about buying AR-15 rifles today, they are talking about semi-automatic rifles.
In a similar manner, the fact that CZ makes (or has made--don't know if they're still in production) fully automatic CZ-75 pistols and there have been some CZ-75s converted to full auto doesn't really change the fact that the CZ-75 is a semi-automatic firearm.
There are some full-auto AR-15s that were converted to full auto, and apparently even some that were made that way originally many years ago, but when people talk about buying AR-15 rifles today, they are talking about semi-automatic rifles.
In a similar manner, the fact that CZ makes (or has made--don't know if they're still in production) fully automatic CZ-75 pistols and there have been some CZ-75s converted to full auto doesn't really change the fact that the CZ-75 is a semi-automatic firearm.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I've seen an SKS go full auto and empty all the rounds. Luckily the shooter was good enough to control it down range. He was horrified. Scared the whatever out of the firing line.
Regarding the Olafson Case, Haven't heard much about that in a while. I assume that he is out of jail now, having served such term as he was sentenced to.
I never did read all that much of the case, some but not a whole lot. The actions of both the ATF and the federal prosecutor struck me as having been akin to swatting a house fly with an 8"naval rifle. Otherwise, Olafson might have been his own worst enemy, with respect to such posts as it is claimed he made, I'm not familiar with this AR-15 site. As Lincoln supposedly offered, Most people sound a lot smarter with their mouths shut than they do with their mouths open, or It's better to stand mute and have people think you a fool than to speak, removing any doubt.
Otherwise on semiautomatic arms going "full auto", as I remember, at Camp Perry, I saw an M-1 rifle go full auto. To much trigger work had been done or worn parts led to this event, fortunately nobody was hurt
Additionally, from personal experience, I've seen 1911 pistols go full auto a couple of times. In one case, with my own pistol, after several years of use, it went full auto, the result of to fine a trigger job and or worn parts. I had the pistol fixed, replacement GI parts, and adjusted to about 4.5# pull. Never had any such trouble again. Another time, I had stopped at a military base to look around and happened into a Leg Match. They were short one body, and I was dragooned into the competition, where I realistically had no business being. In any event, I was given a match prepared 1911, and a box of Match Ammunition. At one point, I loaded the pistol, dropped the slide with the slide release, just like I did with my own piece. It spit out 5 rounds, all at once, causing some concern. I held the pistol downrange, though it ended up somewhat elevated, no harm being done. Suffice it to say that "stuff happens", even to the best of people, I make no claim to being one such.
As to my comments in Post #65, response to the originator, I believe that the facts support my comments. Additionally, the ownership, possession of full automatic (machine guns) and or selective selective fire capable arms is NOT illegal, assuming all the hoops are jumped through, all the ts are crossed, all the i's dotted. One should, of course, check with state law too, however the private citizen can, depending on the size of their purse and their baloney quotient, possess automatic weapons (machine guns) and selective fire arms, among other things. One pays their money and takes their choice.
I never did read all that much of the case, some but not a whole lot. The actions of both the ATF and the federal prosecutor struck me as having been akin to swatting a house fly with an 8"naval rifle. Otherwise, Olafson might have been his own worst enemy, with respect to such posts as it is claimed he made, I'm not familiar with this AR-15 site. As Lincoln supposedly offered, Most people sound a lot smarter with their mouths shut than they do with their mouths open, or It's better to stand mute and have people think you a fool than to speak, removing any doubt.
Otherwise on semiautomatic arms going "full auto", as I remember, at Camp Perry, I saw an M-1 rifle go full auto. To much trigger work had been done or worn parts led to this event, fortunately nobody was hurt
Additionally, from personal experience, I've seen 1911 pistols go full auto a couple of times. In one case, with my own pistol, after several years of use, it went full auto, the result of to fine a trigger job and or worn parts. I had the pistol fixed, replacement GI parts, and adjusted to about 4.5# pull. Never had any such trouble again. Another time, I had stopped at a military base to look around and happened into a Leg Match. They were short one body, and I was dragooned into the competition, where I realistically had no business being. In any event, I was given a match prepared 1911, and a box of Match Ammunition. At one point, I loaded the pistol, dropped the slide with the slide release, just like I did with my own piece. It spit out 5 rounds, all at once, causing some concern. I held the pistol downrange, though it ended up somewhat elevated, no harm being done. Suffice it to say that "stuff happens", even to the best of people, I make no claim to being one such.
As to my comments in Post #65, response to the originator, I believe that the facts support my comments. Additionally, the ownership, possession of full automatic (machine guns) and or selective selective fire capable arms is NOT illegal, assuming all the hoops are jumped through, all the ts are crossed, all the i's dotted. One should, of course, check with state law too, however the private citizen can, depending on the size of their purse and their baloney quotient, possess automatic weapons (machine guns) and selective fire arms, among other things. One pays their money and takes their choice.
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ScottRiqui
New member
I *really* like the finish on that Colt 601 pictured in post #32. Is there a name for that color? It almost looks like equal parts gold, bronze and silver.
JohnKSa:
The Glock 18 is a selective fire pistol. I doubt that there are many of them to be found in this country though. With that exception, are there any others, the Glock is a semiautomatic pistol. Being a fairly light weight piece, about 32 oz., I would think that a CZ-75 would be quite a handful. I think that the old Star Model 30M, which weighed 39 or 40 oz would be easier to handle in full automatic fire. I do not know if any were so made though. The Star Model 30M was a fine pistol though, all steel, classic double action, with a quite decent trigger.
The Glock 18 is a selective fire pistol. I doubt that there are many of them to be found in this country though. With that exception, are there any others, the Glock is a semiautomatic pistol. Being a fairly light weight piece, about 32 oz., I would think that a CZ-75 would be quite a handful. I think that the old Star Model 30M, which weighed 39 or 40 oz would be easier to handle in full automatic fire. I do not know if any were so made though. The Star Model 30M was a fine pistol though, all steel, classic double action, with a quite decent trigger.
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spacemanspiff
New member
Pardon my input but some of these malfunctions being referred to here, isn't it a little inaccurate to say that they make the gun operate 'fully automatic'? Correct me if I am wrong, but these malfunctions are 'slam-fire', right? Releasing the trigger won't make the gun stop firing, it will fire until there is no more ammo to feed.
I have seen two guns that were malfunctioning as such, a Ruger Mark 2, and a Bushmaster AR.
I have seen two guns that were malfunctioning as such, a Ruger Mark 2, and a Bushmaster AR.