Are bayonets obsolete in modern assault rifles?

Bayonet charges didn't do so well in the Civil War, and I doubt they would be very successful today. I used to see every once in a while in the knife magazines BS stories about "How I Wiped Out Three Panzer Divisions at Bastogne with My Trusty Case", but even the knife guys got tired of that kind of stuff.

Jim
 
Since the end of W.W.I the primary purpose of the bayonet has been to guard, intimidate, and herd enemy prisoners. An endeavor American soldiers have had, and will continue to have, a great deal of experience with. -- Kernel
 
Most of the soldiers who died during the Civil War died of gunshot, shell, or good old fashion disease. Does this make the bayonet obsolete even then? No. The value of the bayonet is the fear of cold steel. While the bayonet equipped rifle isn't the long graceful "pike" it once was, having become shorter, less balanced, less wieldy and certainly more cumbersome, I doubt if any soldier wouldn't want it as optional equipment.

Mind you, it's a weapon of last resort and we should remember what Jay Baker's sergeant said, "...when those m-f got close enough for me to stick 'em, I shot 'em."

Didn't the Wolfhounds resort to bayonets in Korea?
 
Turk, you act as though the battlefield is totally organized with nice neat lines of troops always facing one another. It doesn't work that way in real life. When the enemy comes out of the bushes at you all the sudden and you hit the deck as both you and they unload all your magazines, you will be screwed if they rush you while you go to change clips. It has happened, it will continue to happen. It is not a common thing, but when you need it, you REALLY need it. He was right when he said it can be intimidating. In battle both sides have fired all their ammo and had nothing left to fight with except steel. Would you rush the enemy knowing they had bayonets and knew how to use them? Will your M-60 be any use to you when you've fired 600+ rounds over the course of battle and run out of ammo? The bayonet is a good thing, and like I said above, you'll have a knife with you anyway.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Turk; Well, It's strange with all the equipment listed, In Vietnam the VC still got in and there were a few bayonetings in that war. One of the saying we us to have at TBS, no matter how good your defense, the enemy will penetrate it. To think otherwise is to condemn yourself to death.
 
I don't think bayonet is obsolete. It has its place. Let's look at the fact. Massacres happened, soldiers kill the innocent, unarmed civilians unsing their bayonets. Remember the atrocities made by Japanese during WWII, 300,000 Chinese civilians kill in Naking, most of them were killed by bayonets. A Japanese soidier had made the statement - Bayonet is most economic tool to kill people and to perform the massacres. Unfortunately, to date, Japanese still denied their atrocities and did not educate their kids about their dishonor past.
 
Obsolete? No. A preferred choice of weaponry? No. Better than bare hands? Yes.

Bayonets have their uses. As a last-ditch close-quarters weapon, they're better than a club. In a close quarters assault, the presence of the bayonet can serve to keep the enemy in bullet range, as people are more hesitant to charge someone with a big, visible blade. When a soldier rounds a corner with a bayonet fixed and encounters an enemy at close range, the enemy soldier might be more inclined to step back, rather than immediately firing. Modern soldiers, it seems, are more acclimated to the idea of being shot than stabbed. Not that being shot is better, just that their training centers around shooting, so they understand that the enemy is going to try to shoot them - the sudden realization that they might get stabbed might cause a "shock" that would make them hesitate. Just my thoughts...

BTW, in WWII, the Japanese employed a unit called the "Southern Special Attack Force" in China. They were armed only with samurai swords. Their purpose was to demoralize the enemy. One of the members noted that once they closed within 50 yards, small arms fire became innacurate and ineffective as panic set in.
There was also a member of the British armed services that captured several Germans when he jumped in a foxhole armed with only a Scottish broadsword. They surrendered, rather than risk getting skewered.
 
I just got a Russian SKS in mint condition, it did come with a bayonet attached.

This is off the subject but I thought I would ask anyway. Why is it that the SKS is one of the only rifles that it is still legal to have a bayonet attached to it?

Just cant figure that one out for the life of me.

Rifle is damn nice if I do say so myself.

~Jason
 
I would like to respond to a couple of things.

Dangus,

No I do not believe a battlefield is an organized place. Concerning changing magazine after hitting the deck and the enemy rushes you. First to use the bayonet you are going to have to stand and the time it would take to do that you could send another magazine into the magazine well and fire.

I’ll tell you from actual experience what you do in an ambush in jungle. Once you assess the situation your unit has to do one thing first and that is to gain fire superiority real quick. Once done, if the enemy doesn’t break off contact you will send a maneuver element to their side and or rear position. From the ambushes I’ve been in the NVA broke contact within a short period of time.

Concerning the M-60 being of no use after 600 rounds. While I was an M-60 gunner my basic load carry load was 3, 100 round belts the assistant gunner and squad members carrying an additional 1200 for a basic load of 1500 rounds.

Your also right about a bayonet being intimation that is right up to the point of the trigger being pulled.

STLRN

Concerning bayonet attacks in Vietnam how many may occurred? Check out this web site for casualties no mention of bayonets maybe the other category but I doubt it http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwc1.htm

Concerning a defensive position. I totally agree nothing is 100% but you also need to ask how may fire bases were over ran in Vietnam. Letting your guard down is what will get you overrun unless there is a vastly superior force.

Concerning my previous post concerning a platoon taking on a company something I left out was that as soon the enemies where about’s were known, Red Leg would have been screaming down on them.

My personal opinion is a bayonet is good for crowd control.

I might add during my 364-day tour in Vietnam only one person in my squad carried a bayonet and maybe 3-4 in the platoon. It was a not an issue.

Turk
 
It would definitely fall under others, because 1 know of at least one American that was bayoneted and survived. He showed every on the scar. Even back to the civil war less than 1% of wounds (like 0.03%) were caused by bayonets. However, they did occur.
As an artillerymen I know quite a bit about what we would be doing when the grunts make contact. But I know how 3rd BN, 10th Marines got their Motto "7 for 1." It occurred at Saipan when a Japanese banzai attack broke through an army regiment, in defensive positions. And made it back to the Artillery positions, and they found 7 dead Japanese for every dead Marine. So even under the fire of a Regt combat team, reinforced by an artillery Battalion, a large enough attack can break the back of a defense. You don't have to look that far back, If I remember right, a couple of Americans were wounded at LZ X-ray (and latter the march to Albany) with bayonets, they were in a D with artillery firing for them at the rate they actually melted a 105 tube.
 
Since I didn't, for good or bad, have to go to Vietnam I can't voice an opinion on the value of a bayonet in combat. However, when I
attach it to my Delta AR15, add the bipod, and set it out on the table, it drives my anti friends up the wall. "What do you need _that_ for??!!!" Much better conversation piece than a lava lamp.

Dick
Want to send a message to Bush? Sign the petition at http://www.petitiononline.com/monk/petition.html and forward the link to every gun owner you know.

[This message has been edited by Monkeyleg (edited August 23, 2000).]
 
A lot of interesting perspectives, and that bayonet page is great.

I like Dangus' logic on this ... if you're going to carry a good, fixed blade knife, why not make it capable of being fixed as a bayonet? Makes sense. Little downside, no?

Live and let live. Regards from AZ
 
Just though of another MAJOR issue with not carrying a bayonet. What happens when the enemy intermixes with you in the chaos of a particular messy fight? You gonna shoot them? Can you be sure your bullet is gonna stop in their body and not go through and kill your buddy too?

What does Mr. Mackey have to say about it?

Bayonets are good, mmmkay

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me

[This message has been edited by Dangus (edited August 24, 2000).]
 
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