Are ALL new S&Ws like this?

G

Gungnir

New member
My local gun shop/smith have just received a shipment of brand new S&W revolvers, and I had the mixed blessing of seeing them today. He had convinced me to not buy a used revolver a few months back, because these new revolvers would be the guns I really wanted, he said, but the guns he ended up showing me was absolutely horrible! All of the barrels were severely canted to the right, some of them were visibly mounted off the centre of the frame, and some of the revolvers had even had a big and uneven gap between the crane and the frame.

The smith scoffed at me for pointing out these flaws, and ensured me that the guns were as functional and reliable as could be, but I just can't make myself pay S&W money for a product that is so sloppily put together. Am I being too critical?
 
The smith scoffed at me for pointing out these flaws,...
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He does not want to get stuck with that junk...he would rather you buy it and you have to contend with it. Barrels canted may be safe and "functional", but who wants one that way.
 
No pics, no proof. Sounds like SW bashing to me. The dealer isn't "stuck" with anything if he receives defective guns. He simply sends them back.
 
Interesting where this thread is going. If any of this is true, those guns are subpar. I personally like to see to believe. If they were as bad as you say, i would just tell the guy that ill be buying from their better years.
 
The dealer isn't "stuck" with anything if he receives defective guns. He simply sends them back.
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According to the original post, the dealer wants him to buy them instead of sending them back.
 
Any company/maker can have something slip through once in a while that shouldn't - and that goes for guns, cars, TVs, whatever.

You say a "shipment"? Well, what constitutes a "shipment"? One. Two. A dozen?

First off, if it/they do indeed have an issue, the dealer only has to contact Smith and send them back. I have a hard time understanding a dealer or gunsmith selling something that he knows the customer will be back with to complain about.

What model? Models (plural)? I'm assuming if it was a "shipment" - it would be "plural" and a variety of models?

Again . . . sometimes those with a problem can slip through . . . but as is often said . . . "there are two sides to every pancake".

The new S & Ws that I have purchased have all been of high quality, good fit and finish, reliable and accurate - the same as all of my vintage Smiths.

Before this turns in to a "Smith bashing" thread . . . I personally think that much more information is warranted from the OP . . . and since he knows the LGS/smith - i would think he would have no objections if some photos pointing out all of these "defects" were taken by the OP - especially if he wants him to purchase? Just sayin' . . . . :rolleyes:
 
All of the barrels were severely canted to the right, some of them were visibly mounted off the centre of the frame, and some of the revolvers had even had a big and uneven gap between the crane and the frame.
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Uh Huh...pretty hard, hell impossible to believe. Where's the proof? Oh and by the way, welcome to the forum....Rod
 
Not impossible to believe at all.
The last new Smith 686 I had here had a canted barrel, it's far from rare & it's far from Smith bashing.
It also had a poorly cut crown. And poorly fitted grips.
And I did not buy it, because of those issues.

I've rejected two other Smiths with glaring manufacturing errors, after returning the first the replacement was just as bad.

It does happen, and there's no reason to have to take a series of photos of guns at a dealer to post on a gun forum to express dissatisfaction with what the original poster saw.

If he saw what he considered sub-par workmanship, he has every right to discuss it & to ask if he's being too picky.
I'd say he's not.

Being truthful is not being picky & it's not bashing the company.
Denis
 
Howdy

First of all, let me state, that I am a 'S&W guy'. I guess that qualifies me as a snob, since I am a stickler for quality.

I have been shooting S&W revolvers since 1975. I am also a S&W collector and my collection of S&W revolvers goes back to 1863. So I feel I am somewhat qualified to speak to this issue.

In 2015 I bought the first brand new S&W revolver I had bought in 40 years. I was in the local gunshop and there was a new 686-6 in the display case. I was attracted to it because

1. I had no L fame Smiths in my collection, and
2. The price was reasonable.

So I bought it. I am well aware of all the talk about locks and MIM parts, but I thought it would be a good thing to see for myself.

When I took it to the range I was surprised how far I had to adjust the rear sight over to the right to get the bullets to hit at point of aim. I am not new to revolvers, I know how to hold one and shoot one. But this was the first time I had experienced a rear sight that had to be adjusted that far to the right to get the windage right.

Here is a photo of the rear sight and how far it is adjusted to the right to get the windage correct.


rear%20sight_zpsfdj69e6g.jpg





So then I took a closer look at the gun and noticed for the first time that the yoke did not close all the way. It turns out the barrel is canted slightly, that is why the yoke does not close all the way, and that is why the sight needed to be adjusted so far to the right. This photo shows the gap at the yoke. The cylinder is completely latched shut for this photo.

flaw%20crane%20cosure_zpsp2zfelca.jpg





For a comparison, this is the way the yoke on a S&W revolver should look when it is closed. This particular revolver shipped in 1916, but I could take photos of dozens of old Smiths made right up to the 1970s and 1980s that show the yoke locking up just as nicely.

32-20%20HE%20yoke_zpsegaxf4lr.jpg





I do have one other modern S&W revolver with MIM parts, a Model 617-6 that shipped in 2003. I bought it used a few years ago because I was shooting a steel plate match and needed to fire eight aimed shots in 15 seconds. I couldn't do that with a six shooter. This photo shows a small gap when the yoke is closed.

616-6%20yoke_zpspbehlvwn.jpg




Conclusion: Yes, the sample is very small, I have not examined any other new Smiths, but this is my experience. No, I have no idea how bad the 'shipment' of guns was the OP is talking about, this is my experience. Yes, I should have examined the gun more closely before walking out the door with it, but in my defense, I never dreamed that a Smith and Wesson revolver would leave the factory so poorly fitted. By the way, I was employed in manufacturing for many years, so I am very aware of manufacturing tolerances, and inspection criteria, and I also understand how they affect the bottom line of a company.

In the 'old days' a revolver that closed like my 686 does would never have made it out of the factory door. The defect would have been caught and corrected before it shipped. Does it function and shoot fine? Well, yes it functions fine, but in my opinion the sight should not have to be adjusted that far to correct the windage. In the 'old days', whenever that was, the sights of a S&W revolver would leave the factory centered, and it would shoot where it was aimed. I have dozens of old fixed sight S&W revolvers. There is no adjustment possible with them. Yet the windage on all of them is fine.

In the 'old days' again, whenever that was, there were many inspection steps that a revolver went through as it was being built. Now I am getting into the realm of speculation, and I freely admit I have no facts to back this up. I suspect that S&W has made the calculated decision to cut down on the number of inspections a new revolver goes through, opting to correct flaws when they receive a complaint about them, rather than performing costly inspection steps throughout the manufacturing process.

Just my opinion, only based on speculation.
 
I am unaware of precisely how many guns the guy received in total. The guns I were shown was a 6 and a 4 inch basic 686s, a fancier 686 with a slab sided barrel, a 5 inch 627 and a 6 inch 617. When confronting the salesperson with the problem, I was told that I was being unreasonable in expecting production revolvers to be any better fitted than these were, which is the entire reason that I started this thread. I need to know if I really am unreasonable, because if so I obviously need to reconsider my expectations.

Regarding photographic proof of the misaligned parts, I am not visiting the store again just to get pictures of the mans defective (at least aesthetically) inventory. There is only two gunsmiths within a days travel from where I live, and I cannot afford to become unwelcome at either one. You are going to have to take my word for it, or not, either way your opinions and thoughts on the matter have been most helpful to me.

Sending the guns back to S&W would perhaps solve the problems with the guns themselves I suppose, but as this is Europe the paperwork needed to export and re-import the guns would be substantial for a small business owner, and I doubt S&W would cover any of the smiths expenses should he need to send them back. He may indeed be getting stuck with any lemon S&W sends him.

EDIT:

Great and informative photos as always, Driftwood! Your 686 looks exactly like the ones I saw today, with the yoke not closing properly and all.
 
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S&W guns are not made like 1916. They have to keep the costs down somehow otherwise people will not buy them. But they're still dependable from what I've seen and read. I do prefer the older ones though, simply because great examples can be found for the same or even less cost as the new models without all the added "features" who's main purpose is to bring the per unit cost down, no matter what they claim.
 
Wrong. The Colt name is being stamped on guns again. That crap aint colt. Hasnt been in years.

To the OPs point. Smith guns have certaily fallen off of what they were back when, but what hasn't. That said my 629 with its 1/2mm cant shoots waaaaaaay better than I can. Lots of folks ask me who did the trigger work, I tell them the truth, S&W factory line. I have every intention of buying a 586 as my next gun and I have no reservations about it. Ate the barrels as straight? Maybe not. Are the yokes as well fit, probably not, but they shoot and handle just dandy. Fact is stuff is just more expensive these days. People demand a better living wage and companies keep more of that profit. Non the less they make a quality revolver. IMHO.
 
I only have one S&W, a 642. I've carried it for years and never noticed until this post that the barrel is slightly canted right and the yoke is as shown on the 686 above. I mean, it's a $400 carry gun and I don't really care (well, more now since it's Magna-ported), but at least I know what to look for in the future.
 
Evidently a lot of you guys haven't worked hard enough for your money if you willing to lay your money down for stuff that looks like that!
It isn't just S&W, but colt has problems, Rugers got them, they all do. The companies have to watch the bottom line closely, so the share holders get a decent dividend. We got to many people sitting on their backside, shuffling and buying paper to make a living. The companies cut corners, they want cheap labor, so they expect a craftsman to work for beginner wages. The company don't have any connection to the workers, or the community, or respect the customer. Hell, I'm not so sure they are even interested in return customers. No business has ever been successful, by making cuts and lowering standards.
If anyone in todays world, wants to "Make America to be Great Again", some of these problems are going to have go away. We need to roll up our sleeves and do things right, stand behind what we do, keep our word, and be honest and honor our commitments. That has to happen at work, at home, rearing our children and in our relationships. Thats what made America great to begin with and its what it will take to make America great again. Put on your "Big Boy Pants", man up and "gitter done".
 
No not all S&W are like that, but I've seen a few or so around the shops I frequent. That said, I've also seen a few Rugers and Taurus revolvers with weird frame/crane gaps, among other things. Smiths seem to have the canted (clocked) barrel issue more than the others, but again, not all of them. Sadly I too have seen a drop in overall (hit and miss) quality from many firearms manufacturers the last decade or so.

Bottom line is just be a discriminating shopper and pick and choose until you find what you like. Just like new cars on a lot for sale, "I don't like this one because the door, fender, hatch, etc. gap looks crooked, so show me another." Eventually you'll find one you can accept, or, you can purchase (say it's a less common one and you really want it) one and if there's something really wrong, S&W customer service WILL make it right. Yeah, I know it shouldn't be this way generally speaking, but 'modern' mass production is less than stellar at the present time, as some have already mentioned too.

Anyway, here's some pics of my more recent Smiths. Sorry for the flash hot spots, but it's night now and no natural daylight to take advantage of.


Last years model M&P R8. Barrel is 2 piece, so less chance of canting, (zip on mine) and the yoke to frame gap fit looks good for the dissimilar metals they are each made of. The coloring doesn't look so hot, but that's it.





A few years old 686 Plus. My barrel is 1/2mm canted, (noticeable, don't care though) but shoots like a target gun. Yoke to frame gap/fit seems very nice, to me at least.



"
 
S&W guns are not made like 1916. They have to keep the costs down somehow otherwise people will not buy them. But they're still dependable from what I've seen and read. I do prefer the older ones though, simply because great examples can be found for the same or even less cost as the new models without all the added "features" who's main purpose is to bring the per unit cost down, no matter what they claim.
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You missed my point. Of course they're not making them today like they were making them in 1916. I said that I have Smiths made in the 1970s and 1980s and they look just as good as the one made in 1916. And by the 1970s and 1980s they were not making them the same as they were in 1916. Of course a company needs to keep up with the times and change as technology changes. But clearly, my 686 does not have the same quality as a S&W made in 1916, or 1970, or 1980. The first two revolvers I ever bought were a Model 17-3 and a Model 19-3 that I bought brand new in 1975. Yes, the supposedly bad Bangor Punta years. The quality is excellent, inside and out. I have had that 686 completely apart and taken a good look at all those MIM parts. I do understand why they went to MIM parts. But from the inside, the quality is just not there anymore.

And that's why I won't be buying any more new S&W revolvers. There are plenty of terrific old ones out there, often more reasonably priced then something brand new.
 
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