AR15 pistol 7.5in. barrel PDW-best of everything?

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poboyspecial

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I have been testing my Head Down Provectus AR15 pistol with a 7.5 in. barrel and have been amazed at the versatility and ability of this little fire breathing beast. I had to tame the flame with a Noveske KX3 and now it has NO flame and directs all the blast straight forward... just awesome! This is a must have.

I wanted to post this because I have found that not all rounds perform as advertised because of the short barrel. I have tested just about everything I could get my hands on, and have documented most of it. You can check out all the testings on YouTube... poboyspecial channel - playlist 7.5 inch barrel.

There are several videos now of people shooting 200-500 yards with this short barrel. I don't know if I would recommend that, but it is an amazing thing to have it be effective at those ranges. The whole purpose of the PDW is close quarters and medium ranges just like regular pistols. It is very maneuverable, tactical, and ammo is plentiful. It makes a great compliment to an M4.

This is the perfect all around choice in weapon in my opinion... what is yours?
 
I believe, by some strange stroke of luck, I ran across your varmint grenade test on YouTube earlier while researching an article.

I have to wonder what it means for the AR pistol to be "effective" at multiple hundreds of yards. Does it have a whole mot more energy at 500 yards than a .22 lr or magnum has at 50?

From what I've seen, they seem to be pretty decent with heavier bullets in closer quarters though. I do wonder why you choose the .223 instead of something like the .300 blackout or 6.8 which are designed to perform a little better in shorter barrels.
 
To each is own but personally I think the 10.5" barrel is much more effective. M855 ammo out of a 7.5" barrel is under 2200fps where as in a 10.5" barrel its about 2700fps.
Only thing a 7.5 gets you is a big fireball, a loud bang, and lousy down range ballistics.
 
To each is own but personally I think the 10.5" barrel is much more effective. M855 ammo out of a 7.5" barrel is under 2200fps where as in a 10.5" barrel its about 2700fps.
Only thing a 7.5 gets you is a big fireball, a loud bang, and lousy down range ballistics.
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Which one would you rather be shot with?





...Exactly.


Everybody always has to rag on the sub-10.5" barrels, and try to make them sound like Red Ryder BB guns. I have not, however, ever had anyone volunteer to prove the point. Once the idea of a human body being on the line comes into play, then suddenly even 1,800 fps is 'more than adequate' and 2,200+ fps is no longer worth arguing about. :D

And, as always... The baseline ammunition chosen for the comparison is a cheap FMJ load that no one with even a mediocre grasp on terminal ballistics is going to use in a PDW. Choose something that people actually use!
 
That's a fallacious argument. I'm not volunteering to get shot with a .25 ACP. It doesn't mean the cartridge makes sense as a first choice for self defense.

We're rational human beings that will be stopped by fear or maybe pain if fear doesn't work. Are you willing to gamble that the people you may be shooting at are as rational and easily dissuaded from evil as you and I
 
No interest in an AR pistol for myself, but gaining 500fps by going 2-3 inches longer seems like a good trade.
And please name the special ammo that doesn't show similar gains, regardless of price or bullet weight.
 
Which one would you rather be shot with?


...Exactly.


Everybody always has to rag on the sub-10.5" barrels, and try to make them sound like Red Ryder BB guns. I have not, however, ever had anyone volunteer to prove the point. Once the idea of a human body being on the line comes into play, then suddenly even 1,800 fps is 'more than adequate' and 2,200+ fps is no longer worth arguing about.

And, as always... The baseline ammunition chosen for the comparison is a cheap FMJ load that no one with even a mediocre grasp on terminal ballistics is going to use in a PDW. Choose something that people actually use!
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I guess I didn't convey my point correctly. The velocity losses on a 7.5" are similar with not just M855 but all .223/5.56 ammo. With that being said non fmj that's designed to expand in this caliber will start at the minimal velocities required to do so and only become less effective the further down range it travels. A youtube of someone blowing up fruit and vegetables is not proof of effectiveness.
Yes I know for personal protection any bullet that penetrates will hurt in one form or another so no need for the "Would you be willing to get shot by it" statement.
 
FrankenMauser said:
Which one would you rather be shot with?

...Exactly.
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That one is easy. If I had to pick one, I'd rather be shot with the 7.5" barrel, as would any other rational person.

FrankenMauser said:
Everybody always has to rag on the sub-10.5" barrels, and try to make them sound like Red Ryder BB guns. I have not, however, ever had anyone volunteer to prove the point.
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I'm with Dakota: That's a ridiculous and logically fallacious argument. And it's so over-used that it has become a hackneyed cliche.

By that logic, If I argued that Vitor Belfort hit harder than Ronda Rousey, that would mean that I have to volunteer to be hit by her in order to prove my point. And that's ridiculous.
 
There is nothing fallacious about pointing out that reduced muzzle velocity does not equate to total ineffectiveness.

The fallacy, if any, is in the repeated claims that 7.5" barrels are 'totally worthless' ... with absolutely no evidence to back them up.
Most people that make regular arguments about 7.5", 8", and 9" barrels have never even shot one, let alone owned one.

It comes back to the same problem we see regularly in today's world:
"Everything I know, I learned on the internet." :rolleyes:



TMD said:
I guess I didn't convey my point correctly. The velocity losses on a 7.5" are similar with not just M855 but all .223/5.56 ammo. With that being said non fmj that's designed to expand in this caliber will start at the minimal velocities required to do so and only become less effective the further down range it travels.
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The velocity losses are not the same, across-the-board. Different ammunition reacts differently to the reduction in barrel length.
Some loads might lose substantially - 500 fps or more.
But other loads may lose less than 200 fps.
 
FrankenMauser said:
There is nothing fallacious about pointing out that reduced muzzle velocity does not equate to total ineffectiveness.
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Of course not. But that's not what was fallacious about your post. The whole "I don't see anyone volunteering to be shot by one" argument is clichéd, ridiculous, and logically fallacious. That's what I was referring to.

And your argument saying, "Which one would you rather be shot with. Exactly." is equally fallacious. Even if the difference were only 100 FPS (which it isn't; not with any factory load), anyone with an ounce of sense would rather get shot with a 7.5" barrel over a 10.3" barrel. Including you.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but in post #5 you used bad logic in an attempt to make your point.
 
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The velocity losses are not the same, across-the-board. Different ammunition reacts differently to the reduction in barrel length.
Some loads might lose substantially - 500 fps or more.
But other loads may lose less than 200 fps./QUOTE]

When it comes to factory ammo in .223 / 5.56 they all loose about the same percentage in a 7.5" barrel. Been down that path before.
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Personally for anything under about 16" I would rather have a 30 cal projectile.

7.62x39 is preferable for my personal endeavors.

If I were to use a 7.5 inch barrel in an ar, well to be honest I wouldn't. I would rather suppress a 22, or better yet a 30 cal projectile.

If you love it and it works for you, that's all that matters. Although many of us have been shooting 20+ years, and others twice that.

I've seen the effects against flesh personally, so in my own mind my opinions are grounded.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but in post #5 you used bad logic in an attempt to make your point.
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There's no hard logic in that post - direct or implied.
It's an opinion, observation, and possibly even classifiable as a rant.



Are you volunteering to stand in front of my Red Ryder?
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Absolutely, if I can return the favor.
 
One thing is for sure.... if you ever miss your target with a 7.5 inch barrel, the intended target will absolutely be deaf and blind from the noise and blast...
 
perfect?

Wow......that's a very broad brush you're painting with.

I'm glad you like it, and I've talked to other guys who much like yourself, are very big on their AR or AK pistols. But not for me.

Some possible imperfections:
-too big to conceal as in a real handgun/concealed carry
-the lack of a buttstock makes it harder to shoot as a pistol and not as well as a carbine with a butt stock. I suspect, two handed, unsupported, or.....one handed, or single, off hand, the AR/AK blaster would be pretty awkward. The biggest advocate I've met goes on about shooting his with a sling or supported off a rest. I could be wrong, as I've never shot one....but I wonder how one would fare in an IDPA match as a measure of pistol practicality?
-the noise and blast is a drawback, to control all that, you need to add a large brake, that makes an already to big pistol,... bigger
-to make it more shootable, a folding butt would be good, nice trick on an AR. So it's one of those SIG things...now the bigger pistol is even....bigger. The AK will fold, ala "Krink", but see above..... re bigger.
-I think the US military phase in of the M1 carbine, and its wide acceptance as the PDW of the era, pretty much marked the path for further development of the concept. Yeah, the 1911 was still much in demand, but I think that the rank and file could do more, better, with a carbine, and not a pistol.
-While I'm at it, the AR with tad shorter tube (10-12") than the M4, plain Jane, maybe the PDW of the future. Similar to the old "Colt Commando"

But hey, all for the fun of just sayin'. You like it, good for you. To quote Elmer Keith....."I'm for any thing that burns powder."
 
I just don't see the point in a 7.5" 5.56 beyond entertainment value. The flash and blast is pretty rough at that point. Shoot it on an outdoor range with an overhead and the whole firing line will come to a stop to see what kind of cannon is going off. Inside a vehicle or tight space where that compact size could come in handy? That's going to suck.

Ballistically, you're throwing a 55gr around 2200fps or a 60gr at 2100fps. So your trajectory is not flat at all and wind is really going to suck. Claiming that is going to be effective out to 500yds is optimistic, even on a flat range with clearly marked targets and wind flags.

At that point, you could go to a similar length .300 BLK which would throw a 110gr at 2100fps with a lot less blast and have the same effective range with better energy retention and less wind drift.

They are fun to shoot at the range though - last one I shot had such a giant orange ball of doom, that the muzzle flash would wash out the red dot on the low-mount Primary Arms red dot I had mounted. From a psychological standpoint, I bet it is pretty intimidating when viewed from downrange.
 
poboy, .02 worth from a guy who was paid to carry a firearm in military and LE for most of his working life. Bartholomew Roberts makes some good points. I mean no offense, but the short semi-auto "pistols" with no stocks chambered in rifle cartridges don't seem to make much sense in the real world. Full auto OK, semi-auto not so much. If you enjoy carrying and shooting one of these "pistols" nothing wrong with that, but arguments over whether a 7.5" or 10.5" barrel is better strike me as being about as useful as arguments over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The pistol is a defensive weapon and carried as a means to defend against an unexpected attack while going about your daily activities. A service sized pistol may be carried openly or concealed and not interfere with whatever activity one is engaged in. I have served with or alongside a number of different types of military and LE units. None were ever armed with any type of rifle caliber semi auto "pistol". This may imply something about the practicality of some of the type of PDWs under discussion......ymmv
 
I used to think these things were silly... After reading some of the posts by AR pistol enthusiasts, I decided to build one in the 10.5 inch variety; while all along doubting it's usefulness, or even being able to shoot it accurately.

I have to say that it is the most fun firearm that I own. It's surprisingly easy to shoot. You can still get a good cheek weld on the tube and shoot it almost as well as a carbine standing unsupported.

I'm not going to go into ballistics, because of the obvious limitations. If someone thinks they are 500 yard guns... Well hmmm .

I thought this more of a plug for HD firearms myself
 
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