I am looking to get a new semi-auto target rifle, but retain some tactical attributes. I have a Mini-14 with some work done to it try and improve its accuracy, but found it like beating a dead horse. Now I want to try an AR style gun. I want something that can shoot more accurately as Mini's are notoriously innaccurate, however I wanted to remain tactical, hence the reason for no bolt guns. Prices will up to and including $2000 are acceptable. Most of my shots will be 200-300 metres, but there will be times when I want to test the limits of myself out to 500 metres. Is there a need for a large caliber round or is it just overkill?
AR question - .223 or .308?
- Thread starter adbramsay
- Start date
Id stick to the .223 if I was you. Its a lot cheaper to shoot and is very well capable of reaching 500 yards with accuracy. Id drop around 1200-1500 on the rifle (built by you or not) and put the rest into a good optic. The leupold mark 4 AR-15 model is supposed to be a nice optic for target shooting with an AR. And at 500 yards a .308 would (to me) be considered overkill. I have a springfield M1a and those things have a ton of velocity at 1000 yards even
A .223 AR will hit out to 500 M consistently, the issue is that by the time it gets out there it may not have enough energy left to do much more than make a hole in paper.
If most of your shooting is 300M or less, you don't need the range of .308. The bigger question is what are you shooting at. The penetration of .308 would be important if you need to make holes through a hull under the waterline or penetrate car doors etc. Niether of those applications are really very common.
I have ARs in both calibers, and the parts from 5.56 rifles all pretty much interchange, there are a few different types of .308 ARs so that complicates getting magazines, customizing and repairing them.
If most of your shooting is 300M or less, you don't need the range of .308. The bigger question is what are you shooting at. The penetration of .308 would be important if you need to make holes through a hull under the waterline or penetrate car doors etc. Niether of those applications are really very common.
I have ARs in both calibers, and the parts from 5.56 rifles all pretty much interchange, there are a few different types of .308 ARs so that complicates getting magazines, customizing and repairing them.
scottycoyote
New member
why not something more in the middle like 6.5 or 6.8
If it's a target rifle, why get the .308? Due to ammo cost, you could practice so much more with the 5.56. I would stick with 5.56 at first. See if you like the AR platform. If you do, you can add an AR-10 later. FYI - My next gun is going to be either a Rock River or Armalite AR-10.
Do you want a carbine, A2, or a long range varminter/sniper set up? If you want a tack driving long range AR, take a look at the Bushmaster Varminter. Mine is capable of .25 MOA and almost always is under .50 MOA. That said, it is a big gun and not your typical AR carbine that you see everywhere.
Do you want a carbine, A2, or a long range varminter/sniper set up? If you want a tack driving long range AR, take a look at the Bushmaster Varminter. Mine is capable of .25 MOA and almost always is under .50 MOA. That said, it is a big gun and not your typical AR carbine that you see everywhere.
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the laws here in the Bahamas are awkward, the .223 is considered a tectical round and therefore more dangerous than the .308 so it is easier to get the .308. thanks for the heads up, I am new to the AR platform, is there anything I need to look out for?
BTW - I am a big guy at 6'3" and 295 lbs of ex rugby player so weight of the weapon is not an issue.
BTW - I am a big guy at 6'3" and 295 lbs of ex rugby player so weight of the weapon is not an issue.
Here's the link to the Bushmaster. You will have a very hard time finding a more accurate AR, even more expensive ones.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_PCWVMS24FVAR9.asp
If you are new to ARs, I would stick to the big brand guns. Since you are outside the US, I'd go with a Smith and Wesson AR. Their customer service is great and will mitigate any problems you might have down the road.
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_PCWVMS24FVAR9.asp
If you are new to ARs, I would stick to the big brand guns. Since you are outside the US, I'd go with a Smith and Wesson AR. Their customer service is great and will mitigate any problems you might have down the road.
As said, the AR 15 is a different gun than the AR10.
If you want to plink cheap ammo at long range, the 5.56 is it, moving out of issue calibers makes ANY alternate caliber the same price range as typical commerical hunting ammo. But for accuracy, especially at 500m, or having 40% more power for hunting, the most popular alternatives deliver. They were designed to do better.
If the .308 is preferred, not much cheap surplus is left, I tried my best to shoot it up in the '70's and '80s. All those old battle rifles are out of service, and not much of the ammo comes up, mostly unused MG ammo, which isn't always the best accuracy load.
If fact, you can improve service rifle accuracy by NOT using service ammo, most good hunting ammo will tighten them, up to 1/2MOA for what your barrel actually prefers, and handloaded match ammo could add that much more again.
All in all, tho, no inexpensive issue barrel and ammo is good for less the 2MOA, if real precision is wanted, then barrels over $400 sold as match, in stainless are needed. Less than than, it's just long range plinking. It's why prairie dog guns aren't really cheap.
A good barrel, premium ammo, and decent optic for 500m use will likely add over $500 to the project cost if less than 5" groups at 500m are wanted.
If you want to plink cheap ammo at long range, the 5.56 is it, moving out of issue calibers makes ANY alternate caliber the same price range as typical commerical hunting ammo. But for accuracy, especially at 500m, or having 40% more power for hunting, the most popular alternatives deliver. They were designed to do better.
If the .308 is preferred, not much cheap surplus is left, I tried my best to shoot it up in the '70's and '80s. All those old battle rifles are out of service, and not much of the ammo comes up, mostly unused MG ammo, which isn't always the best accuracy load.
If fact, you can improve service rifle accuracy by NOT using service ammo, most good hunting ammo will tighten them, up to 1/2MOA for what your barrel actually prefers, and handloaded match ammo could add that much more again.
All in all, tho, no inexpensive issue barrel and ammo is good for less the 2MOA, if real precision is wanted, then barrels over $400 sold as match, in stainless are needed. Less than than, it's just long range plinking. It's why prairie dog guns aren't really cheap.
A good barrel, premium ammo, and decent optic for 500m use will likely add over $500 to the project cost if less than 5" groups at 500m are wanted.
Some info on the M1A / M14 Battle Rifle:
http://www.army.mil/article/10394/
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/m14-enhanced-battle-rifle/
http://www.army.mil/article/10394/
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/m14-enhanced-battle-rifle/
M14s are being replaced by the M110 for a reason. M14s aren't being used by the military in anywhere near as big of numbers as many people think.
http://www.knightarmco.com/m110.html
http://www.army.mil/article/61231/
http://www.knightarmco.com/m110.html
http://www.army.mil/article/61231/
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trg42wraglefragle
New member
And M1As cost an arm and a leg compared to an AR, although I've heard you can trade 3 arms an no legs if you've got some extra arms handy.
Edward429451
Moderator
(Those are not good reasons to not get an M1A) 
You could get M1 Garands for cheaper than an M1A and they used to teach them boys to shoot them into 8" circle at 500 yards offhand and iron sights.
You could get M1 Garands for cheaper than an M1A and they used to teach them boys to shoot them into 8" circle at 500 yards offhand and iron sights.
sorry I have not responded, but my mentor, the man who is teaching me gunsmithing is in hospital at the moment so I have not had much time between cleaning all the guns and helping to run the shop, but there seems to be a few things that I can take from all this.
the 5.56 is far cheaper to buy, build, run, etc. but a significantly weaker round
the .308 is expensive but worth it.
the problem with the 6.5mm, .243, etc, is that even at my shop the only ammo that is readily available is the .308, .223, and .30-06 and they all average $50 for a box of 20. just be happy you live in the States. BTW some hunting will be taking place, we have 300+ lb hogs here, and that is what I will be hunting. I have a tactical shotgun and a mini 14 for home defence, so this will be primarily for hunting and target shooting.
the 5.56 is far cheaper to buy, build, run, etc. but a significantly weaker round
the .308 is expensive but worth it.
the problem with the 6.5mm, .243, etc, is that even at my shop the only ammo that is readily available is the .308, .223, and .30-06 and they all average $50 for a box of 20. just be happy you live in the States. BTW some hunting will be taking place, we have 300+ lb hogs here, and that is what I will be hunting. I have a tactical shotgun and a mini 14 for home defence, so this will be primarily for hunting and target shooting.