AR pistols with braces to be SBR???

[dogtown tom]

FrankenMauser
....Word from the inside is that a free tax stamp was taking off the table very early on, because of the 3D printing impact.
3D printers can kick out "pistol braces" very cheaply, very easily, and by any idiot that knows how to click the right buttons.

Give the 3D printer guys 90+ days warning, and each one can print enough braces for every pistol that they own, every pistol that their brother owns, every pistol that their neighbors own, every AR lower in the local gun shop, and many, many more.
They're afraid to open the door, since they cannot predict how many people will 3D print like crazy, in order to get as many free tax stamps as possible.

Where did you read of this "word from the inside"?
I doubt 3D printing of arm braces had an iota of impact on ATF's thought process.

First, while a homemade "3D" arm brace is possible, if it wasn't submitted to ATF with a firearm then there's no previous ATF determination letter on whether it was an arm brace or a shoulder stock then the possessor is on thin ice on a hot day.....and that's what got some arm brace manufacturers in hot water.

Second, the ability of current arm brace manufacturers to produce an injection molded brace is much faster, not to mention cheaper than doing the same thing via 3D printer.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Where did you read of this "word from the inside"?

From a friend, whom I met through a mutual friend in the FPC. One of the few people that joined the ATF because they *liked* guns.

First, while a homemade "3D" arm brace is possible, if it wasn't submitted to ATF with a firearm then there's no previous ATF determination letter on whether it was an arm brace or a shoulder stock then the possessor is on thin ice on a hot day.....and that's what got some arm brace manufacturers in hot water.

Yea. That's the point. 3D printed braces fall into the same grey area as half of the "real" braces on the market. It doesn't matter who made it. If the goal is to make "unauthorized" braces go away, then you have to include the homemade in any free amnesty.

Second, the ability of current arm brace manufacturers to produce an injection molded brace is much faster, not to mention cheaper than doing the same thing via 3D printer.

Obviously. But you're missing the point. It isn't about the manufacturers that can make a million braces. Those braces mean absolutely nothing unless they sell. The point of 3D printed braces is that they can come from anywhere, can be adapted to any firearm, and if the ATF offered a free amnesty, people would start printing 'free tax stamps' in the form of pistol braces, as fast as possible. Commercial manufacturers don't get 'free tax stamps', the end user does. And the end user is where these 3D printed braces get created.

Just because you cannot understand the 3D printed gun world and the impact that it is having does not mean that it does not exist. It is a good indicator, however, that you may have your head in the sand. "Doesn't interest me, so it doesn't matter."
You are not alone, though. The gun world, as a whole, does not understand the 3D printing world - especially the 3D printed guns. Ignorance is the majority attitude.

3D printed firearms and accessories are all over the ATF's radar. About 30% of the "Ghost Gun parts kit" crackdown is worded to directly impact companies selling parts kits for 3D printed guns. --Not "80%" ARs, "80%" 1911s, or "80%" Glocks; but 3D printed firearms - like the MacDaddy, FGC9, Big Point, and CZAR.
The end result, if implemented as the ATF desires, will impact the "80%" market as well. But the wording is meant to shut down or severely hinder the suppliers of kits and parts for 3D printed firearms, while simultaneously compromising some designs for the people that want to remain legal (by way of the visible serial number requirement).

 

[zukiphile]

I've never been a fan of "pistol" braces just because they seem so grossly inferior as stocks, but my hat is off to people who find a solution to a silly problem (a grotesque regulation of rifles with short barrels), with a silly solution (a stock that sidesteps the over-reach only if it isn't a good stock). I could wish that people who push greater restriction would be more tolerant, but that's no more useful than wishing winter were a warmer season.

From a friend, whom I met through a mutual friend in the FPC. One of the few people that joined the ATF because they *liked* guns.

I've dealt with local ATF people occasionally over the last several decades, and the ones I've met have been polite and helpful with what I might call a customer service demeanor. Even where I am legally allowed to possess NFA items with any tax stamps, I've never gotten gratuitous hostility from any of them.

3D printed firearms and accessories are all over the ATF's radar. About 30% of the "Ghost Gun parts kit" crackdown is worded to directly impact companies selling parts kits for 3D printed guns. --Not "80%" ARs, "80%" 1911s, or "80%" Glocks; but 3D printed firearms - like the MacDaddy, FGC9, Big Point, and CZAR.
The end result, if implemented as the ATF desires, will impact the "80%" market as well. But the wording is meant to shut down or severely hinder the suppliers of kits and parts for 3D printed firearms, while simultaneously compromising some designs for the people that want to remain legal (by way of the visible serial number requirement).

The impulse to prohibit what one can't tax and control is unwholesome and echoes some of the worse developments in the decentralization of news coverage in the last several decades with the rise of internet media.

As to 3D production specifically, I am awed by it. The ability to make complex designs from complex materials isn't something I would have foreseen from people making plastic junk on home printers.

 

[seanc]

I know 2 ATF agents, 1 now retired and 1 current. Both are good guys that like guns and the gun culture and both have their issues with senior management. It's the political appointees that create the problems. Not every one of them is a dog-killing SOB.

 

[ATN082268]

But the wording is meant to shut down or severely hinder the suppliers of kits and parts for 3D printed firearms, while simultaneously compromising some designs for the people that want to remain legal (by way of the visible serial number requirement).

It seems the government wants all guns to have a serial number. The main purpose of this would be for a registration scheme...

 

[HiBC]

On the 3 D printer: Remember that the 3D printer is only a substitute for a person with skills.

On Alphabet regulatory agencies,and appointing activists to head them,
I offer a quote from C S Lewis:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

 

[dogtown tom]

FrankenMauser
3D printed braces fall into the same grey area as half of the "real" braces on the market. It doesn't matter who made it. If the goal is to make "unauthorized" braces go away, then you have to include the homemade in any free amnesty.

Says who?
The ATF isn't under any such restriction, and the recently proposed worksheet on criteria for braces gives insight into their thought process. From the worksheet it seems some braces are acceptable, hence no need for grandfathering or amnesty.

And the goal isn't making "unauthorized" braces go away, but to backpedal on their original determination.

Obviously. But you're missing the point. It isn't about the manufacturers that can make a million braces. Those braces mean absolutely nothing unless they sell. The point of 3D printed braces is that they can come from anywhere, can be adapted to any firearm, and if the ATF offered a free amnesty, people would start printing 'free tax stamps' in the form of pistol braces, as fast as possible.

How old are you? Remember 1986?
Gun manufacturers and makers were churning out every auto sear and machine gun receiver they could prior to implementation of the Hughes Amendment.
Remember the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban? Manufacturers produced millions of pistol and rifle magazines that guess what.........were legal to sell throughout the AWB. PreBans still bring a premium

A "free amnesty" affects manufacturers and 3D printers exactly the same. If it was made before a deadline on manufacturing.....its grandfathered. If manufactured or 3D printed afterward its not.

Commercial manufacturers don't get 'free tax stamps', the end user does.

Says who?
Until illegal, they are legal. If possession of something is legal now, it doesn't matter if made by a 3D printer or commercial manufacturer.

And the end user is where these 3D printed braces get created.

FYI......you don't need a 3D printer to make an arm brace.

Just because you cannot understand the 3D printed gun world and the impact that it is having does not mean that it does not exist.

No, sir. I fully understand the 3D printed gun world. But we aren't talking about 3D printed guns, but an accessory that requires no license to make, print or manufacture.

It is a good indicator, however, that you may have your head in the sand. "Doesn't interest me, so it doesn't matter."

You quoted something I didn't write.

You are not alone, though. The gun world, as a whole, does not understand the 3D printing world - especially the 3D printed guns. Ignorance is the majority attitude.

Being that 3D printed guns are an incredibly small percentage of firearms its should surprise you. Statistically insignificant.

3D printed firearms and accessories are all over the ATF's radar. About 30% of the "Ghost Gun parts kit" crackdown is worded to directly impact companies selling parts kits for 3D printed guns. --Not "80%" ARs, "80%" 1911s, or "80%" Glocks; but 3D printed firearms - like the MacDaddy, FGC9, Big Point, and CZAR.
The end result, if implemented as the ATF desires, will impact the "80%" market as well. But the wording is meant to shut down or severely hinder the suppliers of kits and parts for 3D printed firearms, while simultaneously compromising some designs for the people that want to remain legal (by way of the visible serial number requirement).

Yeah, we know that.

 

[Geezerbiker]

When 3D printers that can print in aluminum become available to the public, the liberals are really going to mess themselves. Right now they're really high end items mostly used in aerospace but technology has a way of trickling down to the public.

Right now 3D printers that can print in nylon are already making stuff way stronger than the original 3D printed plastic stuff...

As to the data files for gun parts, that toothpaste has been out of the tube so long it's never going back in...

Tony

 

[GE-Minigun]

Form 4 for is for transferring an existing NFA firearm.
Form 1 is for making a new NFA firearm.

Correct...I was told you sent in the F4...I questioned the guy telling me the story...he mentioned something about the gun already being made/declared NFA. It's been years ago, so not 100% positive on how conversation flowed and I very well could not be remembering correctly

 

[FrankenMauser]

How many times are you going to edit your post, tom?
I can't reply if it keeps changing.