AR-15 action - what were they on?

Z

Zak Smith

New member
I'll probably attract lots of flames for this, but I've recently concluded that whoever designed the AR-15 action had been sniffing too much Hoppes #9.

I came to this revelation after carefully inspecting, firing, and disassembling a FAL (Imbel & STG58 kit) -- it's cleaner, easier to take apart, and has fewer parts. Oh, it doesn't go "Twang" on each shot, either.

Are there any semi-auto .223 rifles available in the US that have a better action? I have seen a couple FAL's in .223, but they have no size advantage over the standard .308 version.

How does the action on the M96 Expeditionary Rifle work? Are there any diagrams of its action on the WWW ?

-z


[This message has been edited by smithz (edited April 16, 2000).]
 
I don't think you'll need your nomex flame-retardent 'jammies for the responses you'll receive here.

However, accepting your stated criteria for dismissing the AR-series would lead us to the logical conclusion that the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield would be presumed to be the best center-fire battle rifle.

I think the Defense Acquisition community considered such issues as over-all weight of weapon and basic load of ammo (individual firepower) to be significant factors in the decision to produce these rifles.
 
Don't know about the design of the action, all I know is it works and it is fairly easy to disassemble. Never had a jam with a factory-assembled AR or M16.
 
You're absolutely right. After shooting my FAL, I spend most of my time cleaning the bore, a little less of the gas plug and piston, and the least time on the bolt and carrier (often little more than a wipe down). My AR, on the other hand, I spend the most time cleaning the bolt and carrier. The design is inherently filthy.

Check out a Galil or a Valmet. They're both highly refined AKs, chambered in .223 (some models). Then again, if you like the FAL, you might look into a FNC. Personally, I would love to own a Valmet 76 folder in .223 and I'm kicking myself for not buying one 2 years ago when I had the chance ($1200).
 
Yep, that's generally why I stayed away from the Valmet then. I still kick myself though, the Valmet is the nicest AK variant I've had the pleasure to handle.

Bluegrass Armory has an IMI made conversion so that the Galil .223 can accept AR-15 type mags. It's $100 and looks to simply hook into the magwell (not a permenant conversion). Seems kind of pricey until you figure the price difference between 10 AR mags and 10 Galil mags.
 
You think the Valmet is a nice AK variant?
Just wait until you see the VEPR from ROBARMS... IN your hand - you'll feel the difference.

The FAL was a revolution for me... I never REALIZED the difference. Spending an HOUR cleaning my AR was NORMAL or so I thought. In the Army - we spent HOURS.
The FAL - just MINUTES is all it takes.
That and it shoots harder and farther.
 
I like my FAL but it is sure a heavy beast. I spend more time cleaning my AK than AR due to the dirty Russian ammo. It tries to rust if I do not do a major clean up. As for the AR I just do a quick wipe down on the bolt and carrier just to replace the dirty lube. If you want a fun project try cleaning a G-3 HK, now that is a pain in the behind. The M-1 rifle is a project for a full clean up job and the BAR is just a stinker to clean.
 
While not in the assault rifle category, the Mini14 is the easiest to clean. Scrub out the bore, wipe down the bolt, slide (op rod), receiver and you're done.

The HK91 or HK93 is a different matter altogether. The bolt carrier is easy enough, but the bolt with its two rollers is a b-tch. Scrubbing out the trunnion is also a pain (the small hands theory of Schindler would help here). Then, the odd shape receiver is no joy either. I suppose guns like the HK is the reason why GunScrubber and other aerosol cleaners were marketed.

The easiest ARs to clean are the 9mm SMGs. Pure blowback action. Scrub the barrel, bolt, wipe down the lower and you're done. OK, you're suppose to clean the mags too - but who really does after every session?
 
For a rifle as good as the AR, I don't mind putting in a little extra effort and time maintaining it.
wink.gif
 
George, what does ROBARM do to the VEPR? Do they convert it to standard AK configuration?

I've handled several standard VEPRs and they are mighty nice. Fit and finish were excellent, particularly when compared to my Chinese AK.
 
Thank God I bought my 2 Galils (.223 and .308) before the AW ban. Now if only I had bought that Steyr AUG and those HK's. Oh well....
 
I really don't have a problem cleaning the AR. I've got it down to a science. Same for the HK, and yes, the gunscrubber/ carb cleaner is the best route for it, or simple green/water.
Anyone know what the standard twist is on the .223 Valmet? One of the guys I shot with sold his because it shot perfect keyholes@100yrds.
Any time you're comparing weapons and jumping from a .223 to a .308 you're skewing things a little too much IMHO. Apples and oranges.
 
The Rock is going to step in here and layeth the smackth down.

Is the AR system perfect?
No.
Is it reliable and robust? (Kodiac not counted?
Yes

Is it the most fun semi-auto I own?
Yes.

Is that why I have owned 5? And now own 3?
Yes.

And will buy and build more?
Yes.

Am I going to buy a FAL?
Yes.

Why?
Need a .308 semi to go with the .308 precision rifle.

TR
 
Alan;

Do you have an opinion that you feel has merit? Hell, speak up.
smile.gif





[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited April 18, 2000).]
 
Destructo6 - They dont do anything to it... They import a version actually called the SUPER VEPR... Straight from Russia.
Its built that nice.
 
http://www.robarm.com/M96%20FAQS.htm#m96faq1
What kind of operating system does the M96 have? (I.e., how does it work?)

The M96 is a gas operated semiautomatic rifle. It utilizes a multi-lugged rotating bolt which is contained in a bolt carrier and driven by a piston connected to an operating
rod. The bolt is similar to that of an AR15 or Stoner 63 rifle but is modified for greater strength and durability. A cam slot within the bolt carrier causes the bolt to rotate
in and out of engagement with the barrel extension.
As a round is fired, some of the expanding gasses used to push a bullet down the barrel are diverted from the barrel into a gas cylinder. A piston and operating rod are inside
the gas cylinder. As the gasses hit the face of the piston, the operating rod and bolt carrier are forced to the rear of the firearm against the force of the recoil spring. As the
bolt carrier is forced to the rear, a cam slot in the bolt causes the bolt to rotate out of engagement with the lugs of the barrel extension. Now the bolt carrier and bolt may
travel freely to rear of the firearm.
The empty cartridge case is grasped by an extractor which pulls the cartridge case from the chamber of the barrel. As the bolt and cartridge case travel past the back of the
magazine, an ejector strikes the cartridge case. As the cartridge case is struck by the ejector, it is torn from the grasp of the extractor and ejected violently from the firearm.
The bolt carrier, bolt, operating rod, and piston are now forced forward by the compressed recoil spring, stripping a new round from the magazine and forcing it into the
chamber. Now the rifle is ready to fire again.
 
I like my ARs but the gas system does leave alot to be desired. Dumping dirt into the action with every shot just never did make sense to me. I like them non the less, it was my first centerfire rifle and I've had a couple of them over the last 11 years. The best 223 semi action I've seen was my Daewoo; combine the Fals adjustability, op- rod(no dumping dirt into the carrier/action) and the AKs reliability. The problem was finding any spare parts for it, so I sold it to help finance a Bushmaster DCM rifle.


Brian
 
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