Apex wants their P320 Triggers back

[JoeSixpack]

Let's call that a fair logical conclusion. My question would be what standard a company should be held to. Industry standardized and well defined testing protocols (often with government approval if not actual setting of protocols) or some vague definition of "safe" that goes beyond these protocols? Remember the rule regarding drop safety is not that a firearm must be 100% drop safe but that it must be safe when tested with these protocols.

My opinion, Is that the industry standard test is too easy to pass.
For the test to mean anything you have to have confidence in it.. I don't, Now that I know the details of it.. It's been a real eye opener.

It was my understanding the industry standard is 3foot drop on a rubber mat.
Think about that.. any drop beyond waist height and onto a semi soft surface is beyond testing protocol.
The protocol for the horz drop does not even specify what ordination the gun is in.. so it could be left, right, upside down, somewhere in between.

If you knew a flaw in the gun, You could drop on the side least likely for a discharge and get a flawed gun to pass the test.

I think the "industry standard" needs to be revised to a higher height, more drop angles, and lose that ridiculous rubber mat, all drops should be on concrete.



Think of it like this if industry standard for car crash testing only applied to even bumper head on and rear collisions at 15 mph into water barrels, how much faith would you have in the results?
Would you be happy or demand a more extensive test?

 

[Lohman446]

I recall reading a drop-test procedure once. My impression is it was rather in depth and precise but I am going purely by memory. It may have just been the precision of the testing procedures that surprised me rather than the validity of it. I'm really just going by memory on that.

 

[tipoc]

When Ruger transitioned from the old model Blackhawk to the New Model they offered that anyone who wanted an upgrade to the new hammer block to send their guns in and have the dubious upgrade installed. They did not mandate it. So if you carry an old model you carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

This is the same for a Colt SAA and their clones. It's been the case for 144 years.

Those old guns are safe if handled in the proper manner.

Will someone be sued? Will Ruger be bankrupted?

No one can guarantee that if you drop any loaded gun with a round in the tube, at some angle that it has not been tested at, that it won't fire. Fact is, even if they were all tested using new protocol (which will not happen), no one can guarantee some won't fire.

If a person wants an upgrade, send it in. That way you can have the same trigger the U.S. military has.

If you don't I would not worry overmuch. You will have a gun that has officially passed the tests that every other gun in the holsters of police, militaries and civilians around the globe have passed. The same tests that every other Glock, H&K, Sig, Colt, etc. have passed in terms of being drop safe.

Salivating lawyers and anti-gunners will point out that now that people have posted vids on You Tube it means we don't really know if any of these guns are drop safe from certain angles. It's true. We don't know that.

I'm not all that worried one way or the other.

tipoc

 

[chardin]

It's obvious that several of you need to take another class in Reading Comprehension 101.

My post says absolutely nothing about the voluntary upgrade and whether or not I will use it.

I hope you're not as careless with your trigger finger as you are with your keyboard.

I guess I misunderstood too. I may have misread "getting rid of it". I thought you meant you wouldn't return the trigger group for a refund. What did you mean?

 

[turtlehead]

I wouldn't even consider owning that gun. But that's just me.

 

[gglass]

 

[presspics]

I'm going to have to agree with Water-Man's post and rebuttal. First, If it wasn't for the internet then almost nobody would have known about this extremely rare occurrence. Second, Nowhere in water-Man's post did he say that he wasn't going to get his gun upgraded. He simply said that people are blowing this problem out of proportion and that is true. He also said that he likes the P320 and won't be getting rid of his. Hundreds of thousands of people will be doing the same. Hundreds of police departments won't be dumping it either.

Part of the problem with people today is that they try to read between the lines of what is being said or written. Read and Comprehend what Water-Man said NOT what you interpret him as saying.

 

[turtlehead]

I don't think the problem is being blown out of proportion. The problem is if the gun is dropped and lands a certain way it can go off.

That might be acceptable to some but maybe the rest of us should get a vote, too. That bullet is not going to discriminate about who it hits.

 

[chardin]

Read and Comprehend what Water-Man said NOT what you interpret him as saying.

When you find yourself tempted to type in capitals, you might ask yourself some questions:

1. Why doesn't my argument carry enough force without yelling?
2. Would I shout if I were face to face with this person?
3. What would I expect to happen if I did?

 

[iraiam]

Cleary Apex and Grayguns want to limit their liabiity with respect to the P320 trigger issue. If a dropped P320 discharges with one of their triggers in it and injures or kills someone, surely the fact it had an aftermarket trigger would be brought up by someone.

 

[WVsig]

I'm going to have to agree with Water-Man's post and rebuttal. First, If it wasn't for the internet then almost nobody would have known about this extremely rare occurrence. Second, Nowhere in water-Man's post did he say that he wasn't going to get his gun upgraded. He simply said that people are blowing this problem out of proportion and that is true. He also said that he likes the P320 and won't be getting rid of his. Hundreds of thousands of people will be doing the same. Hundreds of police departments won't be dumping it either.

Part of the problem with people today is that they try to read between the lines of what is being said or written. Read and Comprehend what Water-Man said NOT what you interpret him as saying.

Well when asked directly is he going to send his pistol in he went silent. Hey its no big deal if he does not want to send his pistol in. It is his gun and his liability. I don't really care what he does. My post was to bring to light the possibility that there are liability issue if you choose not to upgrade the P320. It was not a personal attack.

I do not think that it is being blown out of proportion. The gun has a flaw and that flaw has been brought to light. The internet helped facilitate that which IMHO is a great thing. If the internet did not exist Sig would not have issue a voluntary upgrade. They would have fixed them only if there was a reported problem with a particular gun while making changes to their current production.

Sig new there was a problem. They were addressing it internally which is clear because the changes were integrated into the M17 pistol. They did not admit there was and issue until the Dallas PD story started circulating and then the CT LEOs lawsuit. Once that lawsuit was filed they could no longer keep it under wraps. They were clearly running under the Pinto principle. You know there is a defect which could cause harm but the bean counters tell you it is cheaper to settle the lawsuits then recall and fix the problem. I guess the bean counters changed their mind after talking to the lawyers.

 

[Spad_XIII]

"Sig knew there was a problem. They were addressing it internally which is clear because the changes were integrated into the M17 pistol. They did not admit there was and issue until the Dallas PD story started circulating and then the CT LEOs lawsuit. Once that lawsuit was filed they could no longer keep it under wraps. They were clearly running under the Pinto principle. You know there is a defect which could cause harm but the bean counters tell you it is cheaper to settle the lawsuits then recall and fix the problem. I guess the bean counters changed their mind after talking to the lawyers."

I don't think Sig has acted ethically here and I believe that greatly damages their reputation.

What? Since Sig already knew of the safety issue, a problem in design that could easily get innocent people killed, why did they not come straight out and inform their non-military customers? Instead, the hid it and continued to sell a dangerous product to an unknowing public.

Second, as part of the "voluntary upgrade" Sig promises an alternate design, " . . . adding a mechanical disconnector." What is this? a manual safety? a Glock-like trigger-shoe safety? Why would I want such a thing? I bought my two P320s because I liked the smooth trigger and lack of manual safety --- AND because of Sig's reputation. Now that none of those things are operative, why should I not have bought another Glock G19/23?

Finally, if a gun has to hollow out the trigger and lighten components to make it safe, is it really a good design at all? That sounds like a kind of rigged-up Band-Aid for a fundamental design flaw. Why is our military buying this? Why not re-open trials and see if Sig's "Alternate Design" is still competitive with other entrants. If it is an "Alternate Design" then it is not the gun that was originally tested against Glock et. al.