AOW and shotguns....

S

Super-Dave

New member
If a company made a gun under the following critereia:

It used pump action to chamber a round.

It was chambered for 12 gauge.

It came with a pistol grip only.

It had a 12" rifled barrel.

Could this be classified as a pistol instead of an AOW?

The way I read the definition of an AOW the above configuration would classify it as a pistol.
 
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Yes, the rifled bore would put it into the pistol category. It would be one helluva pistol, but a pistol none the less. Look at the Taurus Judge...
 
the barrel would have to be fixed to the receiver. the rifled barrel would possibly make it a short barreled rifle. still needing the $200.00 tax stamp and even if it were allowed for the barrel to be removable. the magazine tube would be too short to use a regular barrel. so you would only have the one fully rifled barrel. i don't know about other manufacturers but remington made a special field model 870 and 1100. the mag tube on those is shorter. so maybe either one of them with a 10" barrel rifled or smoothbore would still need the tax stamp.
 
the rifled barrel would possibly make it a short barreled rifle.
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By definition, a SBR would have to have a shoulder stock.

This is from the BATFE's definitions:
Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
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It does not specify that the chamber has to be attached to the bore, just that it has to be permanently alligned with the bore. Removal of the bore is not revelant.
 
First, Bill is correct. A gun designed to be fired with one hand with a rifled barrel over .5 inches would be considered a destructive device and still be NFA.

Oddly enough, ATF does not consider a pistol gripped only shotgun to be a shotgun. They call it a "Title 1 weapon" and prohibit its sale to anyone under 21 just like it actually was a pistol. By definition, a "shotgun" is designed to be fired from the shoulder.
 
This is me...

...studiously perusing the 1934 NFA and recent case law...

It looks like your 12ga pistol idea would most likely be a Destructive Device.
A Destructive device is classified as
any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or
may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the
action of a explosive or other propellant, the barrel or
barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in
diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the
Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as
particularly suitable for sporting purposes...
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Non-sporting 12 gauge shotgun - is a DD, because it has a
bore over 1/2", and is not exempted unless it meets the "sporting
use" test.
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10-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .775 inches
12-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .729 inches
16-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .662 inches
20-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .615 inches
28-Gauge = Bore Diameter of .550 inches
 
You would have to go one gage higher. The 32 would more than likely be still considered a DD. You 'could' get away with it, but the interpretation of the law would be up to the individual SAIC (Special Agent In Charge) of your field division. It's their oppenions that try and convict people... seriously (I know I cant spell). There are still a LOT of very anti-gun people in the ATF (Clinton Administration left overs) and very soon even more will be in there... so you want to be "well within the aspects of the law". In other words, if the law says .5" then stay at .4 or below for bore size. (another tid-bit... they will not only measure the bore size, but the size of the hole at the end of the barrel as well... and use whichever is bigger)... If your bore size is .452" and your barrel opening is .501 your screwed... Just and FYI.. They WILL go down to the 1000th of an inch in their measurements, and use the laws of machining as justification... Just and FYI... I'd just give up on the bore pistol idea... If i were you. Contact a C2 SOT and have them build you an AOW to your specs and then pay the 5.00 tax, or Form 1 one yourself and pay the 200.00 tax.. Do it to a trust and you dont need the CLEO certification, fingerprint cards, or passport photos.... Just my 2cents. $200.00 may be a lot, but come one.. you can keep it for life and NEVER have to pay it again... $200.00 for something that hardly noone else has??? Come on now.. its not a lot of money by any means in the long run...
 
Here it is:

The 1934 National Firearms Act said:
f) Destructive device. -- The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.
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What if I took a .410 virgin remington reciever straignt from the factory. Put a 8-12" rifled barrel on in it cut the magazine tube, put a pistol grip on it.

Is it legal to sell as a pistol to Joe-Public?
 
I was going to get one but opted not to as you open the front door to the feds any time, any day, any hour. No questions asked.
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No you do not. This is an enternal rumor that just will not die. They still need a search warrant to enter your property. Otherwise, the only thing they can do is stand outside your door and request to view the paperwork for your NFA items. I've had both NFA items and a C&R license for over 20 years and have never laid eyes on an ATF agent.

What if I took a .410 virgin remington reciever straignt from the factory. Put a 8-12" rifled barrel on in it cut the magazine tube, put a pistol grip on it.

Is it legal to sell as a pistol to Joe-Public?
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No. It is still a shotgun and with the pump action, one designed to be operated with two hands. If you must have a multi-shot pistol/shotgun combination that is not NFA, buy one of the .45LC/.410 revolvers on the market.
 
Thanks for the info Kozak6 but that leads to another question. The block quote ended in:
or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.
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This makes sense with muzzle loaders but is this also how they sell centerfire rifles like the .700 Nitro Express?
 
H&K MP5 is VERY correct. The ATF DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENTER YOUR PROPERTY FOR ANY REASON.

If you are one of the few that operate a FFL out of your home, the do have the right to inspect the property just about at will, but even then there are requirements they must obey there as well. They can go tramping around your house. They are allowed to inspect the area of the home designated for business use. THIS DOES NOT GRANT THEM A PERMANENT SEARCH WARRANT.

If you own NFA, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO INSPECT YOUR INVENTORY ON YOUR OWN PROPERTY.... UNLESS... they have a warrant. This goes to show for ANY purpose. Some agents have been know to threaten people with arrest if they do not comply, but if you call their bluff they will leave. They tried that trick at the America Gun Show in Northern VA a couple years ago. They were tracking people purchasing weapons at the show then demanding to see the items later and telling people that if they did not comply and show the purchased weapon then they were going to arrest the individual and charge them with "straw purchase". BULL-****. They got turned away from several homes and nothing happened...
 
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