ANYTHING can be a weapon????

Having a license for something doesn't curtail our liberty at all. The only people who are prevented from doing something by a license are people who shouldn't be doing it in the first place. If you can't pass a driver's test, you shouldn't be allowed to drive. If you can't prove that your fiancee isn't your first cousin, you shouldn't be allowed to get married. If you can't prove that you are proficient with a firearm, then you shouldn't be allowed to own one. I don't need statistics or moral authority to think this way, only logic.
That analogy is not remotely accurate. What you confuse with gun possession and carry is gun use, which is heavily regulated. You won't find many people complaining that firing guns in the city is illegal, or that waving a gun around in public is illegal. Those regulations have nothing to do with gun purchase permits, 4473s, CCW permits, Treasury stamps, or anything of that sort. Cars are not regulated when they're on private property or when they're being towed. Why should guns be regulated when they're owned or carried?

Laws restricting weapon possession and carry are routinely ignored. They are unenforceable and are bad public policy no matter how well-intentioned. It is not enough to pass legislation that mirrors the philosophical "good." Legislation must address a problem, must be enforceable, and must be obeyed by the vast majority of the population.

America was not founded by people who wanted a place where they could do anything they wanted. If that were the case, why would they bother to write the Constitution to begin with? If everything from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness down to home ownership is an inalienable "god"-given right, then why would they need to jot it down? Everytime I hear about the "freedom and equality of Americans" I think of our third president sitting on his veranda ordering his house slave to put more mint leaves in his iced tea.
Slavery is the perennial straw rabbit that's pulled out of the hat whenever someone wants to prove that the founders weren't serious about liberty -- and therefore that we shouldn't care about freedom either.

As responsible, law-abiding gun owners, we have the duty to make sure that those who aren't so law abiding never touch a weapon. Violating the law is a violation of one's place in society, and thus, their citizenship. Read Thomas Hobbes. A gun license would ensure that only the responsible and capable have access to guns.
If gun licensing (or purchase permits, I'm not sure which you're suggesting... both?) is a solution to all our problems, which urban utopia should I move to: Detroit, New York, or Boston?

With freedom comes responsibility. Read...
Nobody here is going to argue with that... that timeless maxim that was around long before the authors you mention. You're not saying that at all. What you're saying is, "with freedom comes the burden of living under a goverment that can take those freedoms away." Responsibility ceases to exist when it is legislated.

Tamara expressed most of my sentiment regarding your reading selections more colorfully than I could have.
 
I don't need statistics or moral authority to think this way, only logic.
Oddly, you said this in response to my pointing out that your logic was very faulty indeed. :rolleyes:

pax

Logic is like the sword -- those who appeal to it shall perish by it. -- Samuel Butler
 
Since people seem incapable of letting this go, I'll respond:

Cars are not regulated when they're on private property or when they're being towed. Why should guns be regulated when they're owned or carried?

Talk about your bad analogies. First off, cars are regulated when on private property, at least in my state, and I'm willing to bet a handful of others. You can't park your car on your lawn, nor have an unregistered vehicle in your driveway, and a host of other regulations. If however, there are places that have no restrictions on cars on blocks on the front lawn, then I certainly don't want to live there. Secondly, and more importantly, a car being towed is obviously an inoperable vehicle. A gun being carried can be assumed to be an operable firearm, unless the person carrying it is a moron, or the gun happens to be a Hi-Point. Be definition of the "operating" a motor vehicle, one must be driving it, in which case one must adhere to traffic laws, insurance regulations, registration rules, etc. However, carrying a firearm for defensive purposes, while it is not "operating" the gun per se, still assumes that one must be in control of the operation if the gun is ever meant to be used. If one has no plans on ever using the firearm in the case of defense, then one needn't have any regulations put on it -- one could just as easily carry an unloaded, read, inoperable firearm. It's quite obvious that carrying a loaded firearm suggests intent to use it, albeit conditional intent at that.

Slavery is the perennial straw rabbit that's pulled out of the hat whenever someone wants to prove that the founders weren't serious about liberty -- and therefore that we shouldn't care about freedom either

Yeah, but it's a pretty good rabbit, for argumentative purposes, don't you think? I could have brought up laws regarding female voting, too, and made my point. However, to say "therefore we shouldn't care about freedom either" is a logical fallacy. One does not follow the other. I was merely pointing out that 18th Century philosophy is a poor indicator of present day law.

restrictions are legally wrong. They presuppose guilt, requiring a person to prove that they are not a criminal. That is a violation of due process; a right guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment

Restrictions do not presuppose anything. They set limits on what a person in society can and cannot do. I cannot run around naked in the streets because that violates my social contract. I cannot eat my dog. I cannot drive 150 miles an hour on Interstate 95. The laws are not there to suppress freedom, but instead to protect society. Licensing has the same effect, and does not, according to the Supreme Court, violate due process.

I was going to post some court decisions, but I was afraid Tamara might mock me again for being educated :p

In thinking about the car / gun analogy, one can look at it this way: A person can own as many cars as they want. If they want to take this car onto the open road amongst the other citizens, however, we as a society have a responsibility to ensure that the driver has some idea of the rules regarding traffic protocol, signage, safety procedures, and general operation of a motor vehicle. If a person cannot prove that he is a safe responsible and insured driver, then he can still keep his car, and wax it everyday in his driveway, but not take it out into the general populace.

For those lovers of the Constitution, you'll notice that it guarentees individual rights, but at the same time protects those of society. Of course you can't legislate against stupidity or criminal behavior, as the posters of the ham-handed situational examples have pointed out. A criminal will still be a criminal, no matter what. Unfettered freedoms, however, may ust go a long way towards making it easier for criminals to operate. Can you imagine if there were a licensing requirement that stated that no immigrants may take flying lessons? In this day and age, we need a harder lockdown to protect American freedom.

Dorothy Thompson, a prominent civil rights activist said, "Of all forms of government and society, those of free men and women are in many respects the most brittle. They give the fullest freedom for activities of private persons and groups who often identify their own interests, essentially selfish, with the general welfare."

And if you don't like her, try John Adams: "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." I think it's pretty clear where he stands.
 
In thinking about the car / gun analogy, one can look at it this way: A person can own as many cars as they want. If they want to take this car onto the open road amongst the other citizens, however, we as a society have a responsibility to ensure that the driver has some idea of the rules regarding traffic protocol, signage, safety procedures, and general operation of a motor vehicle. If a person cannot prove that he is a safe responsible and insured driver, then he can still keep his car, and wax it everyday in his driveway, but not take it out into the general populace.


Are you arguing with yourself???? You've just made a point that flies in the face of your previous posts. Few restrictions on owning, license for public carrying is what goes on and seems to be too permissive by all your previous "logic".

Are you back-tracking, or confused?
 
Unfettered freedoms, however, may ust[sic] go a long way towards making it easier for criminals to operate.
Yeah, and they may go a long way to making it easier for the much larger law-abiding population to operate.
In this day and age, we need a harder lockdown to protect American freedom.
Okay...I uh...it's just...WOW!
Dorothy Thompson, a prominent civil rights activist said, "Of all forms of government and society, those of free men and women are in many respects the most brittle. They give the fullest freedom for activities of private persons and groups who often identify their own interests, essentially selfish, with the general welfare."
So, how does licensing, which further strengthens the power of special interest groups solve that?
try John Adams: "There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty." I think it's pretty clear where he stands.
Yeah, it is. He stands against those who would endanger the public liberty. Which is what licensing does. Licensing only claims to promote safety, the pursuit of which Benjamin Franklin famously degraded thus: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

:confused:
 
Are you back-tracking, or confused?

I'm arguing over the idea of "usage", Handy. Normal people do not own cars without using them. So while it may be legal to own a car without many restrictions, it is not legal to "use" it.

Same goes for a firearm. My point was that carrying a firearm is "usage" the same way that driving a car is "usage" and both must be restricted and licensed for the security of the general public.
 
So, how does licensing, which further strengthens the power of special interest groups solve that

I hate to say it Dave, but we are the special interest group. Establishing licensing laws may just go a long way towards bolstering credibility in the eyes of the liberal and uneducated majority. Too often we hear that it's "too easy" to get a gun. And in some cases, that's true. By self-regulation, we'd get more respect.

Kill a man accidentally during a car accident, assuming you're not chemically impared or otherwise negligent, and you get a fine. Try the same with a firearm. Even if you're found not culpable, the press will have a field day with the inherant dangers of guns, blah blah blah. I think firearm licenses would do more to protect our rights, especially in the eyes of public opinion. We may not be able to educate the unwashed masses, but we can placate them.
 
Usage.

I have two neighbors with unlicensed race cars. The rest of the neighborhood own and operate 4-wheelers, also without license. They can't go on the publicly owned and maintained roads, but can operate them on public or private lands.

Our firearms are an identical situation. There was no license to purchase them, we use them on public and private lands with impunity, and we can take them into populated public areas concealed with a license.

Same, same.
 
Establishing licensing laws may just go a long way towards bolstering credibility in the eyes of the liberal and uneducated majority.
Eloquence and resolve are the only ways to change anyone's mind.
I think firearm licenses would do more to protect our rights, especially in the eyes of public opinion. We may not be able to educate the unwashed masses, but we can placate them.
When public opinion is wrong you don't bow to it, you change it. That is the reason this is a republic and not a democracy. You're talking about giving in to the mob, man! And besides, last time I saw polls on the subject, there was no majority calling for more gun control. It's the leftist politicians drumming up support for those laws that get the ball rolling on them.

Look, fyrestarter, when you cave in, however little, you do not gain credibility in anyone's eyes. History proves the opposite; they see you as weak. They will not leave placated. Rather, they will hide until you grow comfortable that the war is over, and attack again. At which point you will give them a little more. And so it will go until all that is left is the bitter memory of a time when men were free. Your way belongs to the coward. Steadfastness is the way of the righteous.

Also,if I may say: I get the distinct feeling from your posts that you see yourself in an intellectual elite above the "unwashed masses." A position that insulates you from the deprivation that such laws as you espouse would cause others. I would caution you to remember that time after time governments gone bad first enslave or eliminate the elite.
 
I have two neighbors with unlicensed race cars. The rest of the neighborhood own and operate 4-wheelers, also without license. They can't go on the publicly owned and maintained roads, but can operate them on public or private lands.

I don't want to get into semantics, Handy, but your neighbors with unlicensed race cars can't legally operate them without a special license. If they do, they're criminals. If they don't, then they don't have race cars, they have hunks of metal shaped like race cars. The essence of "race car" is to race. Ditto the 4-wheelers. They can't go on public roads because they were not designed for it, and thus, the regulations prohibit it.

Our firearms are an identical situation. There was no license to purchase them, we use them on public and private lands with impunity, and we can take them into populated public areas concealed with a license

Obviously not identical because you need the LICENSE to take them into public areas. That's the entire point. You need a license to "use" the gun. You can't really shoot them on all public lands, because if that were the case, you could go down to the local high school tennis court and fire away. You have rules governing the use.

When public opinion is wrong you don't bow to it, you change it

Dave, I agree. And one of the ways I offer for changing public opinion about firearms is to make their owners accountable. Bumper stickers that say "gun control is hitting your target" or "you'll get my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hands" make responsible gun owners look like rip-snortin' hillbillies. Thanks to people like Michael Moore, Rosie O'Donnell, and the rest of the liberal celebrities, we're fighting an uphill battle. The vast majority of the country listens to Alec Baldwin and Sean Penn, not John Lott and Charlton Heston. If "gun ownership" becomes synonymous with "responsibility", via licensing, classes, etc, our battle lessens. "One must be flexible as a reed and not unyielding as a cedar," so sayeth the Talmud.

Intellectually elite? Nah. Although I'm quite successful in forcing people to walk away shaking their heads ;)
 
I guess you don't know anything about off road vehicles or race cars. There are no licenses required to operate them anywhere that isn't a road. That includes race tracks, private land with permission and any public land where it is not specifically prohibited. Here in NV, that's about 80% of the state that's open access BLM land. I can shoot on all of that land, as well. No licenses. No speed limits, no bumper regulations.

It may surprise you to know that quite a bit of this country isn't paved or owned by Walmart.


Show me a school tennis court where you are allowed to operate a licensed motor vehicle and we'll talk.
 
Why don't we license having children, since surely that is the ultimate responsibility. Prospective applicants could be fingerprinted, photo'd and have a thorough background check ..... And training. I mean without training surely they might put the child at risk - or other people who might perish or become injured as the result of a reckless act by the child of an untrained uncertified parent.

Since having a baby, raising one or more children safely, with reduced risk of injury, illness, behavioral disorder etc requires some knowledge and skills which man and woman is not born with, and must aquire, surely no one can argue otherwise.

Now that makes sense doesn't it? I mean you can not have people running around having babies that are not certified by the state as fit to care for and raise them can you?
 
Show me a school tennis court where you are allowed to operate a licensed motor vehicle and we'll talk

The local high school near my house. After school hours, the tennis court is used as a parking lot.

But then again, since it's not being used as a tennis court at the time, I suppose it's ok. I don't have too many objections to the town defying the "essence" of tennis court.... ;)
 
Why don't we license having children, since surely that is the ultimate responsibility

I agree. I've worked in the South Bronx for four years, and have seen hundreds of students from one-parent households, foster homes, abusive relationships, and every possible iteration of "dysfunctional family". Those people comprise the vast majorty of that 70% that need scrutiny. Crack-heads shouldn't have children. Unmarried 15 year-olds shouldn't have children. Unemployed people with six kids from five different fathers shouldn't have any more children. As a civil society, we should step up and put an end to it.

Some people are not meant to have firearms, or cars, or children. Allowing everybody and anybody to do whatever they want however they want isn't freedom nor liberty. It's chaos. And in the end, responsible people end up suffering at the hands of the "free spirits"; aren't we all just a little tired of paying for everyone's mistakes, frailties, and shortcomings in the name of "freedom"?

Talk about off-topic....
 
Other items requiring no license (as it should be):

Publishing. Print what you want, in any amount you want. No matter how nasty it is.

Flying. As long as your airplane is under a certain weight (based on the amount of damage it could do if it crashed), there is no pilot's license or aircraft certification necessary for the operation of an ultralight.

Mind altering drugs. Despite an awful lot of laws directed at specific items, an American may brew beer or wine for their own use without any sort of license.

Agriculture. Grow what you want, hybrid as you like. Breed a super-weed.

Animal husbandry. Breed whatever sort of dangerous animal you like, of any size.

Firearms production. As long as the final weapon violates no laws, you may produce as many as you want for yourself.

Surgery. A citizen may perform medical alterations to themselves without being a doctor.

Boating. Small vessel operation is also unlicensed.


As anyone can plainly see, Americans have the unfettered right to do quite a few dangerous activities without any sort of governmental control, unless they are for commerce. Guns simply fall in with everything else.
 
Handy,

Americans are only allowed to brew beer in wine in small quantities for personal consumption. After a certain amount, they are expected to get a tax stamp.

The FAA has many rules regarding ultralight flight. See the FAR part 103.

Breeding a super weed? Come on. You're grasping at straws, as it were. Someone from the Dept. Of Agriculture finds out you're doing such a thing, it's off to court you go.

Publishing? Try to publish a tract about Nazism or white supremacy and see which one of the agencies show up on your doorstep. Then spend your life savings defending your first amendment rights.

All boats, regardless of size, at least out here on the east coast, require registration. No, it's not a license to operate, but is still a form of governmental authority. On top of that, all watercraft must be insured. Sounds like more authority to me.

Surgery? To one's self? Do you live in a bunker beneath the earth's surface? Besides, there are certain surgical procedures that are against the law, even if performed on oneself, such as fingerprint removal. And try to perform surgery on your children or spouse, because you don't like doctors, and fail. It's called Depraved Indifference, murder in the second degree.

As for the rest of your spurious arguments, they're equally ridiculous. All have regulations you're either ignorant of or refuse to acknowledge. No offense Handy, you're very knowledgeable about firearms and the like, but your legal and political philosophy sounds like it comes from someone who lives on a mountain surrounded by barbed wire with a gas generator and four M-16's packed in Cosmoline buried in your yard, waiting for WWIII. We are part of a greater society, (the last time I looked), and as such, if we do not seek responsibility ourselves, we should expect someone to thrust it in our laps. Perhaps you are a responsible person, and fall within the 30%, but you need to take into account the majority of selfish, uneducated, downright stupid people who can't maintain a level of responsibility that is conducive to a safe, functioning society.
 
Hmmm...

Just one day after reading this thread, guess what happened? Right there on the cover of the paper, it says somethign like 'Man nearly loses hand afer being attacked by machette'. Talk about coincidence.
 
Fyre,

What I was illustrating with colorful examples (all of which have LEGALLY occurred) was that licensing is NOT a normal activity imposed on Americans. Auto licensing is really an exception, and is part of our socialized roadway system.

I just can't believe that after the lessons of Hitler and others a member of our free society would stand up and say "Some of us know better than the majority, and we're going to make the rules." Your 30% clause is deeply, terrifyingly sick.

I'm not pissed about this from just a gun rights perspective: Your rhetoric is wholely fascist and un-American. The direct results of the licensing process you want could only be prejudicial.

It is greatly telling that you bring up the Constitution and slavery/suffrage. You cite two injustices that we have CORRECTED as justification for enacting new injustices.


I do not view this as a little friendly debate. You and your ilk are the enemy of our liberty and the prosperity in our society. While I doubt my words could possibly get through to someone with such a abominable world view, I would hope I could at least embarrass you into keeping your hate program to yourself. We have all the rich old white men and racial profiling we need at the moment without adding your brand of crazy to the mix.
 
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Life is not "safe" nor is it "fair" nor is it particularly "nice". We communally agree, in unsubstantiated hopefulness, to some forms of controls in an effort to gain those end states, yet time and time again, such controls are shown to NOT WORK. If just ONE person refuses to abide by societal mores, life is revealed for what it is. Sure maybe it doesn't effect MOST of us, MOST of the time but for the individual touched by that ultimate reality it is all-encompassing.

To then claim that more and more controls, whether communally agreed upon or not, will correct this state of affairs is asinine.

I would rather have the freedom to effect my own reality to the greatest degree possible, and risk more of the uncontrollable happening, then trade that ability to gain some vacuous, immaterial, "societal gain" that will not help me a WHIT when chance comes calling.

Put me down for freedom and personal responsibility, when I roll the dice each day, at least I'll know they're mine.
 
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