Anyone still using or own the 45 AGP?
- Thread starter Ocraknife
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Do you mean the .45 GAP (for Glock Automatic Pistol)?
It's available, but there's not much call for it.
It exists because when Glock first came out with a pistol in .45 ACP the grip frame was so big that smaller shooters just couldn't use it. So Glock developed a cartridge that mimicked .45 ACP ballistics in a cartridge the same length as a 9mm or .40 S&W. That allowed them to make a pistol with a grip frame that was smaller in overall circumference.
It's available, but there's not much call for it.
It exists because when Glock first came out with a pistol in .45 ACP the grip frame was so big that smaller shooters just couldn't use it. So Glock developed a cartridge that mimicked .45 ACP ballistics in a cartridge the same length as a 9mm or .40 S&W. That allowed them to make a pistol with a grip frame that was smaller in overall circumference.
carguychris
New member
Additionally, Glock's .45 GAP models—the G37, G38, and G39—are nearly the exact same size as the G17/21, G19/22, and G26/27 respectively, allowing most holsters, mag pouches, and other accessories to be shared. This is a big potential budgetary plus for a LE agency looking to switch over, since the agency doesn't have to invest in new gear for every officer.Aguila Blanca said:
Actually, I think this speaks to the pistols' lack of acceptance in a broader sense; the cartridge was devised under the assumption that many LE agencies would prefer a larger caliber than .40 S&W but were hesitant due to the large size of most .45 ACP pistols. However, Glock's crystal ball was cloudy, and most such agencies are now going the other way and adopting 9mm.
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Yeah to echo above, the .45 GAP was made by Glock to produce .45 ACP 'caliber' or terminal ballistics, basically in regular-people English they're trying to replicate the .45 ACP power/results in a case similar to the 9mm, to fit in their guns at the time. If I Recall Correctly, there was some specific trouble getting a .45 ACP Glock made (I believe the grip thing was partially correct but it was not just the problem with a hand holding it, it was physical size and performance of the gun, something like that, there was some engineering difficulties.)
So Glock went all in on this .45 GAP and shortly after the .45 ACP was being fed into all sorts of semi-automatic pistols and the .45 GAP was pretty much useless, 'obselete before acceptance' if you will.
However Glock has diligently pursued supplying the .45 GAP to police departments and government agencies for decades now. I know that the Florida Highway Patrol is all-in on the .45 GAP, they issue the full-size .45 GAP Glock 37 to all their officers and supply the subcompact Glock 39 to various officers in need of backup, concealment, or undercover firearms etc. And that is all you're allowed to have and use, I read their documentation awhile back when I moved down here (bored one night) and they're all about the .45 GAP - and only the .45 GAP.
The Pennsylvania State Police have a long and (hilariously) storied history with the .45 GAP .... they had them for some time. And they were considered one of the "flagship agencies" if you will for Glock and the .45 GAP. (They wound up switching to the .45 ACP Glocks a few years back and before they could even issue them to all their officers they switched to SIG P227s... it's a hilarious and sad read if you Google it).
Wikipedia says that NYSP, GASP, SCHP, and others also use the .45 GAP, I don't know if that's so, I think there was a few other major state agencies that have switched calibers and/or brands of service weapons in the last 5-10 years.
Anyway hope that helped. I myself wouldn't go near it unless it was free- the guns cost the same as a "regular caliber" Glock, and the ammo is quite expensive AND quite scarce, so you're often stuck with buying even more expensive ammo than you wanted just to get some ammo. Unless I was a serious collector or had a very specific reason to want to add one .45 GAP to my collection, I'd stick with 9/40/.45ACP but that's just me.
So Glock went all in on this .45 GAP and shortly after the .45 ACP was being fed into all sorts of semi-automatic pistols and the .45 GAP was pretty much useless, 'obselete before acceptance' if you will.
However Glock has diligently pursued supplying the .45 GAP to police departments and government agencies for decades now. I know that the Florida Highway Patrol is all-in on the .45 GAP, they issue the full-size .45 GAP Glock 37 to all their officers and supply the subcompact Glock 39 to various officers in need of backup, concealment, or undercover firearms etc. And that is all you're allowed to have and use, I read their documentation awhile back when I moved down here (bored one night) and they're all about the .45 GAP - and only the .45 GAP.
The Pennsylvania State Police have a long and (hilariously) storied history with the .45 GAP .... they had them for some time. And they were considered one of the "flagship agencies" if you will for Glock and the .45 GAP. (They wound up switching to the .45 ACP Glocks a few years back and before they could even issue them to all their officers they switched to SIG P227s... it's a hilarious and sad read if you Google it).
Wikipedia says that NYSP, GASP, SCHP, and others also use the .45 GAP, I don't know if that's so, I think there was a few other major state agencies that have switched calibers and/or brands of service weapons in the last 5-10 years.
Anyway hope that helped. I myself wouldn't go near it unless it was free- the guns cost the same as a "regular caliber" Glock, and the ammo is quite expensive AND quite scarce, so you're often stuck with buying even more expensive ammo than you wanted just to get some ammo. Unless I was a serious collector or had a very specific reason to want to add one .45 GAP to my collection, I'd stick with 9/40/.45ACP but that's just me.
A couple of comments are puzzling. The .45 GAP has the same case and bullet diameter (and circumference) as the .45 ACP. The only difference is the case length, .755" for the .45 GAP, vs. .898" for the .45 ACP. The .45 GAP is/was avaliable in the same bullet weights as the .45 ACP, and the same bullets can be used.
The .45 GAP will even feed and fire in a standard .45 ACP pistol, though I found it unreliable in functioning, and the factory 230 grain round seemed to be less powerful than the .45 ACP.
Jim
The .45 GAP will even feed and fire in a standard .45 ACP pistol, though I found it unreliable in functioning, and the factory 230 grain round seemed to be less powerful than the .45 ACP.
Jim
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Yes, the bullet has the same diameter and circumference as a .45 ACP, but the shorter cartridge means they could build a gun with a grip frame that's shorter front-to-back, and that translates to a grip with a smaller circumference -- which means it can be held more securely by small hands.James K said:
In order to achieve .45 ACP ballistics using a shorter case with less capacity, Glock had to load the round to roughly the equivalent of what would be +P pressure in .45 ACP. Which is why you don't see any .45 GAP +P -- it already is +P.
If you run .45 GAP through a .45 ACP pistol, the GAP rounds aren't headspacing on the case mouth as intended, they're headspacing on the extractor, which is not a good idea. It can be done -- I've done it in testing to fire .380 ACP through a .38 Super barrel -- but it shouldn't be done on a regular basis. Small wonder you found it unreliable.
carguychris
New member
In all fairness, a .45 GAP+P round could conceivable be offered, as the ACP+P pressure at which it operates is fairly sedate by auto pistol standards (23k psi). Another 2k-3k psi is probably well within the margin of safety in the Glocks, although it won't exactly turn the round into the hammer of Thor.Aguila Blanca said:
This underlines one of the main reasons the round hasn't really caught on—the GAP cartridge was designed to duplicate .45 ACP ballistics rather than improve on them, and the little pressure boost is there to maintain performance rather than increase it. The round very deliberately doesn't do anything the ACP can't do, hence the collective shrug on the part of the civilian shooting community, most of whom think the ACP cartridge and the guns that fire it are just fine as-is.
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LockedBreech
New member
It's a dead caliber walking. I haven't even adopted a .357 SIG out of concerns for long term longevity, and it's like 9mm compared to .45 GAP.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Some people say .45 GAP was a solution for which a problem didn't exist -- but that's not true.
When Glock first introduced their .45 GAP weapons, about the only .45s you could find were revolver, SA guns, or guns with grips that many people could not handle well. (The Glock 21, which I tried to like, felt like a 2x4 in my hand.) In the years since .45 GAP Glocks were introduced, a number of gun makers have offered .45s with smaller grips, so that the people who couldn't handle SA- or larger-gripped guns now have alternatives. Interestingly, Glock has also found a way to reduce the grip size in newer versions of their .45 ACP guns -- and have a small single-stack model, too.
I have a Glock 38, which is the same size as the Model 19/23 sized pistol -- the slide is a tiny bit wider -- and it works in 19/23 holsters. It's one of the softest shooting .45s I've owned. That seems to be something most .45 GAP Glock owners all mention. As for ammo? I've had no trouble finding ammo -- either bulk for range use or the pricier SD rounds. I get most of my range fodder from Georgia Arms, and their prices are generally the same for .45 GAP or .45 ACP. They also offer HP ammo. If worse comes to worst, and I can't get .45 GAP ammo any more, I'll just get a Glock 23 slide, make a couple of small mods (drop in parts), and keep the gun. I got it unfired for a very, very good price, and don't regret buying it.
I've had 1911s, Witness, and CZ .45s, as well as a bunch of SIG P220s, and I prefer the Glock 38 to all of them, and were I to shoot competitively again -- which I haven't done in several years -- the 38 would probably be what I used. (I've only added the Ghost trigger...) I saw used (police) Glock 37s recently for low prices, and was sorely tempted -- but I never seem to have money when I see the great deals.
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When Glock first introduced their .45 GAP weapons, about the only .45s you could find were revolver, SA guns, or guns with grips that many people could not handle well. (The Glock 21, which I tried to like, felt like a 2x4 in my hand.) In the years since .45 GAP Glocks were introduced, a number of gun makers have offered .45s with smaller grips, so that the people who couldn't handle SA- or larger-gripped guns now have alternatives. Interestingly, Glock has also found a way to reduce the grip size in newer versions of their .45 ACP guns -- and have a small single-stack model, too.
I have a Glock 38, which is the same size as the Model 19/23 sized pistol -- the slide is a tiny bit wider -- and it works in 19/23 holsters. It's one of the softest shooting .45s I've owned. That seems to be something most .45 GAP Glock owners all mention. As for ammo? I've had no trouble finding ammo -- either bulk for range use or the pricier SD rounds. I get most of my range fodder from Georgia Arms, and their prices are generally the same for .45 GAP or .45 ACP. They also offer HP ammo. If worse comes to worst, and I can't get .45 GAP ammo any more, I'll just get a Glock 23 slide, make a couple of small mods (drop in parts), and keep the gun. I got it unfired for a very, very good price, and don't regret buying it.
I've had 1911s, Witness, and CZ .45s, as well as a bunch of SIG P220s, and I prefer the Glock 38 to all of them, and were I to shoot competitively again -- which I haven't done in several years -- the 38 would probably be what I used. (I've only added the Ghost trigger...) I saw used (police) Glock 37s recently for low prices, and was sorely tempted -- but I never seem to have money when I see the great deals.
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Hi, Aguila Blanca,
Yes, in a pistol chambered for the .45 ACP (a 1911 type in my case), the .45 GAP is held back by the extractor, but the reliability problems were not misfires or light strikes, as might be expected, they were failures to cycle, the same as I would expect to encounter with a lightly loaded .45 ACP. The ballistics of the .45 GAP don't seem to show any great differences between it and the older cartridge, but there must be some, at least in the ammo I had (Federal
American Eagle, 230 gr. bullet).
Jim
Yes, in a pistol chambered for the .45 ACP (a 1911 type in my case), the .45 GAP is held back by the extractor, but the reliability problems were not misfires or light strikes, as might be expected, they were failures to cycle, the same as I would expect to encounter with a lightly loaded .45 ACP. The ballistics of the .45 GAP don't seem to show any great differences between it and the older cartridge, but there must be some, at least in the ammo I had (Federal
American Eagle, 230 gr. bullet).
Jim
Aguila Blanca
Staff
I assume you are attributing the failures to cycle to lightly-loaded cartridges in .45 GAP? Not necessarily.James K said:
The .45 Auto (ACP) chamber is slightly tapered. It's about .480" at the mouth and .474" at the forward end. The .45 Auto case/cartridge has a max spec of .473 at the case mouth. The .45 GAP has a max case mouth dimension of .4729 (don't ask me why it's .0001" smaller than the .45 ACP, ask SAAMI), and the case mouth would sit .138" back, into the taper. That would likely allow for quite a bit of blow-by, which would effectively reduce the power of the cartridge.
What should have occurred, a company should have tried to make a SIG P938 sized .45 GAP pistol. I think that would have been more groundbreaking than the GAP lineup.
As said, the Glock pistols are identical to their 9mm/.40 line. Might have got the grip thinner, but you also lose three rounds when you compare full-size GAP to ACP magazine capacity. For a standard police load out, that is like carrying an extra GAP magazine.
My brother-in-law was with the Florida DOT (commercial compliance), prior to being moved into Florida Highway Patrol. He was issued a SIG P226, then switched to the GAP when they moved. He bought the SIG, no questions asked. Broke his neck and retired, but he didn't buy the Glock for some weird reason. Really, for all the people I've talked to that used them, none had any positive things to say about it over a Glock 21.
As said, the Glock pistols are identical to their 9mm/.40 line. Might have got the grip thinner, but you also lose three rounds when you compare full-size GAP to ACP magazine capacity. For a standard police load out, that is like carrying an extra GAP magazine.
My brother-in-law was with the Florida DOT (commercial compliance), prior to being moved into Florida Highway Patrol. He was issued a SIG P226, then switched to the GAP when they moved. He bought the SIG, no questions asked. Broke his neck and retired, but he didn't buy the Glock for some weird reason. Really, for all the people I've talked to that used them, none had any positive things to say about it over a Glock 21.
Walt Sherrill
New member
screwball said:
The .45 GAP guns holds more rounds than any flush-fit single-stack 1911... and I don't know of any LEO agencies that have moved to the newer double-stack .45s now available.
Then, too, how many police carry .45s? Except for the few agencies that went to .45 GAP, hardly any use .45s! (Here in NC some Sheriff departments used Glock 21s for a while, but I think many of them have reverted to .40 and 9mm, if only because officers with smaller hands -- only some of them women -- couldn't cope with that much bigger grip. They had to have OTHER weapons, too, and that's arguably inefficient and more costly.
The .45 round (.45 GAP or .45 ACP) isn't widely used in the LEO world or in the military. When you see it used, it's typically elite military or LEO units (like the FBI's HRT), or law enforcement agencies that allow (or require) the LEO to buy his or her own weapon.
Hi, Aguiila,
That could explain what I found. That could result in blackened cases, but in all honesty, I never noticed. In any case, I found the .45 GAP to be unreliable in a GI 1911A1 .45 ACP pistol. The question being raised at the time was whether the .45 GAP would work in a .45 ACP 1911, with arguments on both sides, mostly by folks who had no experience with either cartridge.
Just more evidence that the best cartridge with any gun is the one it was designed to use.
Jim
That could explain what I found. That could result in blackened cases, but in all honesty, I never noticed. In any case, I found the .45 GAP to be unreliable in a GI 1911A1 .45 ACP pistol. The question being raised at the time was whether the .45 GAP would work in a .45 ACP 1911, with arguments on both sides, mostly by folks who had no experience with either cartridge.
Just more evidence that the best cartridge with any gun is the one it was designed to use.
Jim
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Just so. I guess there's a reason the manufacturers stamp those little letters and numbers on the barrel or barrel hood.James K said:
I found the same thing when experimenting to see if I could shoot .380 ACP out of a 9mm. It shot -- but in either a Hi-Power or a 1911 it was a single-shot pistol. Even when I tried a lighter recoil spring, there was so much blow-by that there wasn't enough energy left to cycle the slide, or even partially extract the empty case. And the cases were BLACK.
Then I tried it in a .38 Super, which has a somewhat tighter (but longer) chamber -- same result. Accuracy improved a bit, but who wants a single-shot semi-auto?