Anyone pick a rifle over a shotgun?
- Thread starter Oleg Volk
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Nope. Not at all.
If it's going to be under 10 meters, I'm picking up my shotgun.
If it's going to be under 10 meters, I'm picking up my shotgun.
Under 25m indoors I like shotgun. Fear of overpenetration with decent rifle ctgs. Always at hand, 686 2.5, stainless so could even have it in shower.
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Oleg, much of the decision making process depends on METT-T. Everybodies is different. I am a shotgun fan for in home defense from a fixed position. Wandering around the house (things that go bump in the night) I use a handgun. Anything exterior to the house is by definition either a non-event or calls for very precise shooting.
The other point is that the first thing is to have a gun. Second, have one that works. Everything else is very far down the list.
METT-T is a handy planning acronym develpoed by the military. Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Time and Troops available. Once you work through the planning (use a legal pad) the equipment part is pretty obvious.
Giz
The other point is that the first thing is to have a gun. Second, have one that works. Everything else is very far down the list.
METT-T is a handy planning acronym develpoed by the military. Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Time and Troops available. Once you work through the planning (use a legal pad) the equipment part is pretty obvious.
Giz
There's alot of data that indicates that a 5.56x45 carbine is a better choice for most HD and LE situations than a shotgun, at least if the operator is up to the task.
The 5.56x45 is less likely to overpenetrate than buckshot (or pistol bullets). All will go through home walls, but the 5.56 bullet will be in tougher shape after going through the first wall and is less likely to continue through more walls. So, I wouldn't chose a shotgun (or pistol) based on penetration.
As a note on that point, IMO the idea of using birdshot, Glaser slugs, etc., is very unsound. While there may be limited cases where they will work and might even be optimal, there is no guarantee that those conditions will exist, or that they will not change, and leave you inadequately prepared. I want my PDW loaded with projectiles that will penetrate with a margin for error. YMMV, but if the bullet hits the attacker sideways and first penetrates bone and muscle in the arm, for example, a lighly-penetrating projectile may not halt the attack.
The idea that you don't have to aim a shotgun or use the sights is no longer considered good training doctrine (partly because of what happens if you miss or overpenetrate). And, many HD/LE shotguns now pattern more tightly: for example, the VangComp choke, and Remington's move to IC choke (at least for the Police Magnum models). So, although it's still true that there is a greater margin of allowable error with a shotgun, IMO it's not a huge factor.
Certainly, for user-friendliness, the shotgun has no advantage. Its recoil is significantly heavier than a 5.56 carbine, and the shotgun is probably a little longer, too, even with an 18" barrel. The shotgun isn't going to be any quieter (at least not to notice) indoors.
There are some advantages to the shotgun. Domestic models are (mostly) less expensive than even a Mini-14 and much less expensive than a quality AR-15. And, a pre-ban AR-15 may soon be irreplaceable -- worth thinking about, since the defense weapon will almost certainly spend a good deal of time with the local authorities and may never be returned.
Shotguns are probably slightly more sympathetic (depending on how configured) with the jury than an evil black assault weapon.
Shotguns probably slightly (you can flame me on this point, but who really knows?) more aurally and visually intimidating to your attacker. Personally, I find _any_ loaded weapon pointed at me very intimidating...
Shotguns are more flexible than either handguns or rifles, because you can switch ammo types readily (buck to slug, for example). However, using slugs assumes you've got the training both to execute the change and to deploy the slug accurately, which +99% of home defenders don't.
My suggestion would be that a post-ban Mini-14 would be the best pick (but better make sure the mag(s) is/are reliable feeders). I wouldn't go for full-power hi-power rifle cartridges like .30-06 or 7.62x51 (too much penetration). An SKS or AK-type rifle might be a good choice. In fact, a Winchester or Marlin lever action .30-30 has similar ballistics and is cheaper, easier to replace, easier to play the sympathy card with. Not sure how the AK or lever will penetrate compared to 5.56, but I'll bet it will be significantly greater.
The 5.56x45 is less likely to overpenetrate than buckshot (or pistol bullets). All will go through home walls, but the 5.56 bullet will be in tougher shape after going through the first wall and is less likely to continue through more walls. So, I wouldn't chose a shotgun (or pistol) based on penetration.
As a note on that point, IMO the idea of using birdshot, Glaser slugs, etc., is very unsound. While there may be limited cases where they will work and might even be optimal, there is no guarantee that those conditions will exist, or that they will not change, and leave you inadequately prepared. I want my PDW loaded with projectiles that will penetrate with a margin for error. YMMV, but if the bullet hits the attacker sideways and first penetrates bone and muscle in the arm, for example, a lighly-penetrating projectile may not halt the attack.
The idea that you don't have to aim a shotgun or use the sights is no longer considered good training doctrine (partly because of what happens if you miss or overpenetrate). And, many HD/LE shotguns now pattern more tightly: for example, the VangComp choke, and Remington's move to IC choke (at least for the Police Magnum models). So, although it's still true that there is a greater margin of allowable error with a shotgun, IMO it's not a huge factor.
Certainly, for user-friendliness, the shotgun has no advantage. Its recoil is significantly heavier than a 5.56 carbine, and the shotgun is probably a little longer, too, even with an 18" barrel. The shotgun isn't going to be any quieter (at least not to notice) indoors.
There are some advantages to the shotgun. Domestic models are (mostly) less expensive than even a Mini-14 and much less expensive than a quality AR-15. And, a pre-ban AR-15 may soon be irreplaceable -- worth thinking about, since the defense weapon will almost certainly spend a good deal of time with the local authorities and may never be returned.
Shotguns are probably slightly more sympathetic (depending on how configured) with the jury than an evil black assault weapon.
Shotguns probably slightly (you can flame me on this point, but who really knows?) more aurally and visually intimidating to your attacker. Personally, I find _any_ loaded weapon pointed at me very intimidating...
Shotguns are more flexible than either handguns or rifles, because you can switch ammo types readily (buck to slug, for example). However, using slugs assumes you've got the training both to execute the change and to deploy the slug accurately, which +99% of home defenders don't.
My suggestion would be that a post-ban Mini-14 would be the best pick (but better make sure the mag(s) is/are reliable feeders). I wouldn't go for full-power hi-power rifle cartridges like .30-06 or 7.62x51 (too much penetration). An SKS or AK-type rifle might be a good choice. In fact, a Winchester or Marlin lever action .30-30 has similar ballistics and is cheaper, easier to replace, easier to play the sympathy card with. Not sure how the AK or lever will penetrate compared to 5.56, but I'll bet it will be significantly greater.
Nope, I don't prefer rifles in HD scenarios.
However, they can serve others well.
Various Govt Agencies spent lots of time and money giving me some excellent shotgun training,and the shotgun remains the optimum CQ weapon,IMO. Given a choice for CQ between a shotgun of my choice and an Elian G Special MP5, I'd go with the 870.
But,not everyone has the combination of talents and training I do. For others that may not be as able with the shotgun, a rifle makes more sense than the ubiquitous handgun.
An M-1 carbine loaded with Soft Points is an excellent tool for HD,I've reservations about full power rifle rounds and the 5.56 mm.
And that's not from lack of experience with same.There's a tweaked Model 94 upstairs with tactical potential, but it's not a HD tool, here and now.
For HD with rifles, a market exists for frangible projectiles that would not overly penetrate. As an example for that 94, say a 100 gr,flatnosed HP of pistol bullet construction, pushed out at 2000 FPS. Make it as short as possible to lower the SD and use as big a cavity as reliable functioning will allow.
However, they can serve others well.
Various Govt Agencies spent lots of time and money giving me some excellent shotgun training,and the shotgun remains the optimum CQ weapon,IMO. Given a choice for CQ between a shotgun of my choice and an Elian G Special MP5, I'd go with the 870.
But,not everyone has the combination of talents and training I do. For others that may not be as able with the shotgun, a rifle makes more sense than the ubiquitous handgun.
An M-1 carbine loaded with Soft Points is an excellent tool for HD,I've reservations about full power rifle rounds and the 5.56 mm.
And that's not from lack of experience with same.There's a tweaked Model 94 upstairs with tactical potential, but it's not a HD tool, here and now.
For HD with rifles, a market exists for frangible projectiles that would not overly penetrate. As an example for that 94, say a 100 gr,flatnosed HP of pistol bullet construction, pushed out at 2000 FPS. Make it as short as possible to lower the SD and use as big a cavity as reliable functioning will allow.
I prefer a semiautomatic rifle or carbine loaded with hollow points. A .308 or .30-06 is too powerful for the home defense scenario. I feel a .223 or a .30 carbine is a better choice. Shotguns are not very effective if firing buckshot at ranges above 40-50 yards.
It's a good policy to have a good handgun ready to strap on when picking up your rifle or shotgun.
It's a good policy to have a good handgun ready to strap on when picking up your rifle or shotgun.
Patrick Graham
Moderator
I live for this kind of discussion. 
In a house I would pick neither a rifle or a shotgun. The space could turn out to be too confining for either. In some stairways it would be impossiable to swing a 18 inch barrel around.
Handgun is the way to go in a confined space.
In a house I would pick neither a rifle or a shotgun. The space could turn out to be too confining for either. In some stairways it would be impossiable to swing a 18 inch barrel around.
Handgun is the way to go in a confined space.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Planning on "hot sweeping" your own house, Patrick? 
I gather you are not figuring on motivated and armored goblins. I picked 30-06/308 as preferred caliber for the ability to defeat cover. I might be Ramboing it a little too much but seeing what a 357mag DOESN't do to a 2x4 convinced me to move up as much as possible. Is over-penetration even a concern for the rural folk?
Patrick Graham
Moderator
I love this kinda stuff
As a matter of fact..
Depends on the status of the alarm system.
If the alarm had never been set, yep.. sweep that puppy. If the Alarm had been set and not triggered, no, just waltz over to the computer (Glock in hand) and check all 16 video cameras. If the Alarm had been set and triggered I would expect that the local swat team would have swept it for me.
At least, this is what I would do if I had money.
Oops.. back to reality
As a matter of fact..
Depends on the status of the alarm system.
If the alarm had never been set, yep.. sweep that puppy. If the Alarm had been set and not triggered, no, just waltz over to the computer (Glock in hand) and check all 16 video cameras. If the Alarm had been set and triggered I would expect that the local swat team would have swept it for me.
At least, this is what I would do if I had money.
Oops.. back to reality
North Hollywood could have been handled with slugs or aggressive tactics. Here's why...
If they had slugs at the time (they do now) they could have taken a head shot or center of mass. If the slug didn't penetrate the vests of the suspects, at least they could have been stopped by the massive energy transfer of the slug.
Why didn't the responding officers assemble a reaction team 4 deep with a car and drive around the backside of the bank? They could have come up from behind and got in close range with the suspects. From what I know, the suspects heads were exposed. At close range, armed with a 12 gauge, they could have easily ended the crisis.
Long arms for CQB suck (unless you've been blessed with an HK MP-5). It's not too safe to run around your house with a shotgun or carbine. It would be wise to hunker down in your bedroom with your weapon and a phone.
If they had slugs at the time (they do now) they could have taken a head shot or center of mass. If the slug didn't penetrate the vests of the suspects, at least they could have been stopped by the massive energy transfer of the slug.
Why didn't the responding officers assemble a reaction team 4 deep with a car and drive around the backside of the bank? They could have come up from behind and got in close range with the suspects. From what I know, the suspects heads were exposed. At close range, armed with a 12 gauge, they could have easily ended the crisis.
Long arms for CQB suck (unless you've been blessed with an HK MP-5). It's not too safe to run around your house with a shotgun or carbine. It would be wise to hunker down in your bedroom with your weapon and a phone.
I too have thought a lot about this. Last year I spent a lot of time training w/my 870 and just love it. Over 500 rounds and some shot gun classes. I thought I had the perfect HD weapon. Then I realized how loud that thing is and that my wife DOES NOT like shooting it. So I changed to my Ruger Police carbine in .40 w/a tactical light. She loves to shoot it, I love to shoot it, a good plan. I also keep my G22 close buy and ready to go just in case. I will never get rid of my 870 but I think my PC4 will fill this bill a little better.
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Take Care
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Take Care
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
I am curious: my choices for combat at ranges under 25m (i.e. home defense) are Mak90, Garand "shortie", AR15 and M1 carbine in that order...20ga pump shotgun is next on the list. Has anyone else found a preference for autoloader rifles over pump/auto shotguns?[/quote]
I agree that the rifle is better choice in general than the shotgun. IMHO the shotgun is an experts weapon like the SMG. For very specific roles I prefer a 12 guage 1 oz slug because they don't make semi auto 458x2" yet.
I think buckshot has more limitations than most people want to consider. Okay so under the optimum range for your load of buck in your gun it will make it easier to hit the target. But you never know what type of pattern you will get when you pull the trigger...if you do lots of pattern testing you will have a good idea of what SHOULD happen but Murhpy is alive and well.
What I would really like to see for a HD rifle/carbine would be a improved 250 savage or a 6.5 based on the improved 250 case. Loaded with V max bullets. This would give you the same velocity as the 5.56 round but with a bigger and heavier bullet.
Put the new cartridge in a 7 lbs gun with a Cmore or such type forward dot with aperature sights in reserve and conventional scope mount, so you could use it on coyotes and such for training, or so you could use it for designated marksman/sharpshoter use.
I am curious: my choices for combat at ranges under 25m (i.e. home defense) are Mak90, Garand "shortie", AR15 and M1 carbine in that order...20ga pump shotgun is next on the list. Has anyone else found a preference for autoloader rifles over pump/auto shotguns?[/quote]
I agree that the rifle is better choice in general than the shotgun. IMHO the shotgun is an experts weapon like the SMG. For very specific roles I prefer a 12 guage 1 oz slug because they don't make semi auto 458x2" yet.
I think buckshot has more limitations than most people want to consider. Okay so under the optimum range for your load of buck in your gun it will make it easier to hit the target. But you never know what type of pattern you will get when you pull the trigger...if you do lots of pattern testing you will have a good idea of what SHOULD happen but Murhpy is alive and well.
What I would really like to see for a HD rifle/carbine would be a improved 250 savage or a 6.5 based on the improved 250 case. Loaded with V max bullets. This would give you the same velocity as the 5.56 round but with a bigger and heavier bullet.
Put the new cartridge in a 7 lbs gun with a Cmore or such type forward dot with aperature sights in reserve and conventional scope mount, so you could use it on coyotes and such for training, or so you could use it for designated marksman/sharpshoter use.
In a house I would pick neither a rifle or a shotgun. The space could turn out to be too confining for either.
Then how about a 12-guage pistol?
http://www.securityarms.com/pics/144.jpg
Then how about a 12-guage pistol?
http://www.securityarms.com/pics/144.jpg
J
Jeff, CA
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.R.Sam:
Under 25m indoors I like shotgun. Fear of overpenetration with decent rifle ctgs. Always at hand, 686 2.5, stainless so could even have it in shower.[/quote]
Everyone knows the proper shower gun is the side-by-side coach gun. See John Wayne in "Big Jake" for proof.
Under 25m indoors I like shotgun. Fear of overpenetration with decent rifle ctgs. Always at hand, 686 2.5, stainless so could even have it in shower.[/quote]
Everyone knows the proper shower gun is the side-by-side coach gun. See John Wayne in "Big Jake" for proof.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
Is over-penetration even a concern for the rural folk?[/quote]
Never though about it... let me drive down to my closest neighbors and ask.
> Schmit runs out to his Burb and fires that puppy up. Exits his drive on the the gravel road. Taking the road through a thick patch of woods he decends into a shallow valley which is clear cut for livestock and back up the other side. Taking a left onto another gravel road he proceeds about 50 yards to his neighbor's house and inquires. He retraces his .3 mile trac<
I'm back. Asked my neighbor Doogle. He said if he thought I was shooting something that would penetrate through the woods and then make it the 1/4 mile up to his house, penetrate into it and cause damage or just have enough velosity to do any damage when it got to his place he would be down in a heartbeat... to shoot the beast!
Got to love country living.
[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited May 07, 2000).]
Is over-penetration even a concern for the rural folk?[/quote]
Never though about it... let me drive down to my closest neighbors and ask.
> Schmit runs out to his Burb and fires that puppy up. Exits his drive on the the gravel road. Taking the road through a thick patch of woods he decends into a shallow valley which is clear cut for livestock and back up the other side. Taking a left onto another gravel road he proceeds about 50 yards to his neighbor's house and inquires. He retraces his .3 mile trac<
I'm back. Asked my neighbor Doogle. He said if he thought I was shooting something that would penetrate through the woods and then make it the 1/4 mile up to his house, penetrate into it and cause damage or just have enough velosity to do any damage when it got to his place he would be down in a heartbeat... to shoot the beast!
Got to love country living.
[This message has been edited by Schmit (edited May 07, 2000).]
Ned Roundtree
New member
Under 25m, in a HD scenario? I would grab the Mossberg 590A1. The wife would back me up with CAR15 in 9mm. But the primary gun is the shotgun over the carbine.
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