Anyone have good sucesss running 77 SMK's in an AR ?

Hello folks,
Been working up some 77gr SMK's in my 1-9" twist Bushmaster Varmint AR and thus far have tried Benchmark and 8208 XBR powder. Found some "OK" accuracy around 1 MOA , but nothing consistently sub MOA. Any of you have any accurate loads ? I even tried seating the bullet for a .020" bullet jump (which at that length I had to single feed the bullets as they were too long for mag feed), didn't notice much better accuracy from simply loading to Lyman's suggested mag length. I'm thinking maybe my AR just doesn't like the 77gr.

Road Clam, I feel your pain. I have tried, tried, and tried again to get a tight group with the 77gr MK HPBT out of my 24" 1:8. I have tried H335 and Varget and never got better than 4 (out of 5) bullets within 1/2" at 100 yds with Varget.

On the other hand my AR does quite well with 55gr VMAX/H335 and 69 gr MK HPBT/ Varget. Last week the 69gr MK HPBT, LC brass, CCI #41, 25.4 gr Varget gave me a nice 5/16" (5) shot group at 100 yds with a brand new Redfield scope. I'm using a stock mil-spec fire control unit and could probably do a little better with a decent trigger.

My 24" HBAR in 1:8 should be able to create a nice tight group with 77gr MK HPBT at 100 yds. But without a tight 100 yd group, I saw no purpose in going further out to see if the 1:8 would maintain stability . Not giving up on the 77gr bullet yet, but I'm out of bullets and need to get my hands on some different powder.

As other more technical/knowledgeable folks have advised, 77gr out of a 1:9 twist barrel is unlikely to meet your expectations.

Edited/Added: after rereading what others have posted, I think I will probably not waste anymore time/money trying to get the 77gr MK HPBT to fly out of my 1:8.
 
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1:8 twist barrels shoot 77 grain bullets just fine.

My 1:8 Les Baer shoots 77 SMKs under 1/2 MOA and also shoots Berger and Nosler 77 grain bullets under 1/2 MOA.
The new Sierra 77 TMKs shoot even better than the 77 SMKs in the Les Baer 1:8 twist averaging 0.395 for all groups versus 0.461 for all groups for the 77 SMKs.
The top 10 best loads include eight 77 grain bullets and two 69 grain bullets and average 0.249 for 5 round groups at 100 yards. In my rifles, I have found that the slower powders (CFE223, N140, Varget and Reloader 15) work best with bullets over 65 grains.

To provide some comparison for a 1:9 twist barrel, my CZ 527 Varmint bolt action 1:9 has accuracy drop from well under 1/2 MOA with bullets under 55 grs to 0.454 with 69 grain SMKs and to just under .7 MOA with 75 grain bullets. The CZ has problems cracking 1 MOA with 77 grain SMKs or any other 77 grain bullet so I don't waste my time loading heavy bullets for it.
Given the results with the TMKs in the Les Baer, I might load a few and try them in the CZ.
But in general, I would say that my 1:9 CZ has problems stabilizing a 77 grain bullet and begins to loose accuracy with bullets above 69 grains.
 
Until very recently the only AR I had was a 1:9 (20" A2) and the heaviest I could get to shoot well were 69gr SMKs. They will get you by at the 600 yd line, they will be affected more by the wind though. Probably not much other choice for now, if/when you get serious about competition you will likely do as I did and get another upper with a faster twist to shoot the heavies.
 
not to hijack this 1:7 thread........but

RimFire5

That was/is my expectation, but after 150 rounds of 77gr SMK's fired, I was/am a bit frustrated. I really expected Varget to work for me, but it hasn't quite panned out. My rifle was built by someone else and the barrel has zero markings. The previous owner thought it was an ER Shaw barrel, but no way to tell.

What I do know is this barrel fouls easily and absolutely MUST be cleaned after 12-15 rounds. If not, the groups really open up. Surprisingly, after a cleaning it is a waste of ammo to fire fouler shot/s as it is dead on from the first round fired.
 
Oley55,

Sounds like CFE223 is worth a shot for you. If it increases the number of shots between necessary cleanings, it might be a good choice if accuracy is there.

Jimro
 
Jimro, good suggestion me thinks.

frankly a semi-auto AR that requires such frequent cleanings pretty much negates the practical usage of an AR. I'll give CFE223 a try, otherwise I'll be looking for a different barrel.
 
12-15? Yikes! I once had a really rough military barrel on a Garand that started to fall apart in the middle of rounds 30-50 of the National Match Course (600 yard slow fire), and have heard of guns doing it after 20 rounds, but yours takes some kind of prize. A lot of barrels need ten rounds to really settle, so you are getting like zero good round time.

In your shoes I would do a couple of things. First, I would make sure I got the barrel truly clean so that I knew I wasn't starting out pre-fouled. No way to know how the previous owner treated it and old fouling can be a misery to get out.

The method I would use is to start with some Mobil 1 0W-20, and get the bore good and wet with it and let it sit 24 hours and then push a bronze brush from breech to muzzle, unscrew it at the muzzle, remove the rod from the bore, put the brush back on and repeat a couple or three more times. This is so you are only brushing in one direction. Then patch the oil out. Mobil 1 has very good carbon softening additives. The Army Marksmanship Unit uses it for this reason. If you have hard carbon deposits, the patches will come out blackened with visible carbon (not just gray steaks). If you get that, I would repeat this every day until black carbon stopped coming out.

Another excellent product for that is Gunzilla. It is actually a little faster working, IME, but oil is cheap if you have time to let it work. Gunzilla I have left in a bore for a month and a half while it kept getting carbon out of pits in an old Springfield barrel, so it's something to try if you are for some reason not satisfied with the oil results, but I expect you will be.

Next, I would spray some brake cleaning solvent down the tube to remove the oil. Brake cleaner, unlike carburetor cleaners, has no residual lube left behind.

The next thing I would apply is KG-12 copper solvent. This is not like the usual ammonia copper removers. It is a water-based chelating chemistry. If you let it sit 20 minutes it will absorb a huge amount of copper. The only drawback is it doesn't turn blue or green when it reacts with copper. It just gets darker orange. But three applications over an hour will remove more copper than I've yet found in a barrel.

At that point, if you know someone with a borescope, I would take a look, particularly at the throat and first two or three inches of the bore, where copper fouling is heaviest. If you don't have access to a scope, I would apply a copper solvent that does turn blue, let it sit five minutes and push it out with a plastic or other non-reactive jag, just to be sure I didn't see any color coming out.

At this point I would take Iosso Bore Cleaner or JB Bore Compound and push a patch down to the muzzle, remove it, push it through from the breech again, and go for a third or even a fourth time if it still seemed to be working. I would then get a fresh patch and repeat, and keep repeating every third or fourth patch until I had pushed through the bore the bore a total of about 50 times (48 is divisible by both three and four; close enough). Then I would repeat with Flitz.

Now take the gun to the range and see if you haven't made progress with the fouling problem. If not, you may need to look at firelapping or other more aggressive polishing methods. I don't like it as a first resort, because you very occasionally get a gun that sees adverse accuracy effects from doing it.
 
Nick,

yea after 12 rounds the group just starts opening up, but after 15 rounds it is really evident. After 20 rounds, 1/2" MOA becomes 2"+.

In the past I have soaked n cleaned for a couple days removing all trace of both copper/carbon fouling. But not inspected with a bore scope.

I have already fire lapped using the Tubbs fire lapping kit and I am reluctant to do it again. In retrospect I wish I had been more deliberate in my fire lapping methods. Knowing how quickly it fouls, I wish I had taken several days to complete the fire lapping rather than a single long day. I should have spent much more time removing fouling between each string of lapping bullets. Today my gut tells me after a few rounds I was merely fire lapping copper versus barrel steel.

I am thinking I have two options, go ahead and get a new barrel or thoroughly clean and then find someone (acquaintance or gunsmith) with a bore scope and then go from there.
 
Load

I rarely get to a 200 yard range. Mostly I shoot my old HBar with its 1-8 twist from prone at 100 yards. Most often I use the Sierra 77s over 24 grains of Reloader 15. Winchester brass and primers.
I am not a great shot but can usually keep all ten together at 100 yards.....the load has always been 10 ring reliable for 10 shots at that distance
 
600 yd range day update sucess !

Well, long story short success ! Shot my 77 smk's out to 600 yds today and they performed very well. I briefed my fellow target puller as to my bullet experimentation and he communicated to me that the holes were perfectly clean NO signs of instability. Shot about 30 rounds and overall I was shooting between 1-3 MOA . Unfortunately no X's today as the wind was a bit brisk at times. I mostly scored 9's and 10's .
I started out at 200 meters just to verify my zero, my MOA and my velocities. At 200 meters I was at about 1.25 MOA . My chosen load was 24gr of Win 748 and a .020" jump. My velocities today were about 2728 (73F). Great day for shooting , mild temps, low humidity , and breezy. My 200M to 600 yd elevation dope calculated to about 14 MOA , and this was spot on as my first 600yd cold bore shot scored a 10 ring. For an AR platform my box stock Bushmaster Varmint is a dam good shooter. Took some time to dial in my 600 yd zero but my last 10 shot string scored : 10,9,9,8,10,10,8,10,9,10 (shooting at a standard MR 600 yd target . So to put this instability concern to bed, in a Bushmaster 1-9" 24" bbl AR-15 you CAN successfully shoot 77's out to mid range. Any other 1-9" rifle YMMV...
 
Very cool Glad it worked out . I'll be doing my own test this weekend from a 1-9 16" barrel . Only to 300yds though . These will be my reloads that I only get 2560fps from a 20" barrel 1-8 twist . I'll report back
 
Metal god said:
Very cool Glad it worked out . I'll be doing my own test this weekend from a 1-9 16" barrel . Only to 300yds though . These will be my reloads that I only get 2560fps from a 20" barrel 1-8 twist . I'll report back

I took the opportunity of having my crono set up and reading favorably to test some factory American Eagle AR 5.56 ammo through both my Varmint 24" upper and my std 16" upper. Was curious about the velocity differences. Here's the data I gathered :

American Eagle AR 5.56 ammo advertised velocity : 3165 fps

16" bbl Bushmaster 1-9" upper:
low=3051 , Hi=3103 , avg=3077 ES=52 SD=21

24" bbl 1-9" Varmint upper :
Low=3295 High=3425 Avg= 3360 ES=71 SD=49

So there's an additional 280 fps through my 24" bbl which seems a lot but this is the data I got so I'm going with it. Data shows that the AE AR 5.56 ammo is pretty hot stuff.
 
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Well they say you can get 30 to 50fps more per inch of barrel length . It would seem you're right in that window . Those results seem reasonable and accurate to me . Thanks for showing the results
 
This is a general approximation I came up with based on expansion ratios for different barrel lengths. It lands within 20 fps in this case. Given differences in powders, chambers, and bore conditions, I think it did pretty well, if I do say so myself:

Barrel%20Length%20Velocity%20Approximation_zpskkyu1rcj.gif


3360 fps × 0.91 = 3058 fps.


Road Clam,

That's a vexing situation you have with that barrel. A bore scope would tell you if you have a defect of some kind, or if you failed to achieve adequate bore smoothing because of copper shielding of the barrel. That would tend to be within the first three inches or so past the throat, if it happened. Slugging will tell you if that barrel has a constriction that still needs to be removed. Barrel blanks not stress-relieved before contouring often have tighter bores where the steel is thickest, back near the chamber. I agree that with a bore that fouls that fast, fully cleaning after every lapping round for the first ten might have been a good idea, then every five after that. You could still do the Iosso or JB and then Flitz routine, of course, which won't introduce any copper as you do it.

If you go to a new barrel, a barrel you know has been stress relieved prior to contouring or one that has been hand lapped would be a good choice. Anything made from a Douglas blank will have been stress-relieved. Criterion barrels are all hand-lapped and are a good option for something less expensive than the custom makers turn out. A Kreiger will cost you an extra $70, but are cut rifled and hand-lapped and are a mainstay among match shooters. The lapped finish is finer in the Krieger I own than in the Criterion barrels I've bought. The Criterions get the Iosso/Flitz treatment from me, and I usually touch my crowns up slightly, but that's me being compulsive and not because I have any scientific evidence that it's necessary.
 
Uncle Nick, I'm confused at what your stating , why did you take my 24" bbl avg velocity and multiply it by .91 ? Do my numbers seem off ?
 
If I may Unclenick ?

He was patting him self on the back :D

His calculations say if you have an ave muzzle velocity of 3360fps from a 24" barrel as you do . When you shoot that same ammo from a 16" barrel you should get an ave of 3058fps . Seeing how your results show an ave MV of 3077fps from a 16" barrel . His formula is pretty accurate because it's not only inside your ES it's inside your SD . That is a pretty good formula if you ask me .
 
thanks Nick,

I think this part was for Oley versus Road Clam

Road Clam,

That's a vexing situation you have with that barrel. A bore scope would tell you if you have a defect of some kind, or if you failed to achieve adequate bore smoothing because of copper shielding of the barrel. That would tend to be within the first three inches or so past the throat, if it happened. Slugging will tell you if that barrel has a constriction that still needs to be removed. Barrel blanks not stress-relieved before contouring often have tighter bores where the steel is thickest, back near the chamber. I agree that with a bore that fouls that fast, fully cleaning after every lapping round for the first ten might have been a good idea, then every five after that. You could still do the Iosso or JB and then Flitz routine, of course, which won't introduce any copper as you do it.

If you go to a new barrel, a barrel you know has been stress relieved prior to contouring or one that has been hand lapped would be a good choice. Anything made from a Douglas blank will have been stress-relieved. Criterion barrels are all hand-lapped and are a good option for something less expensive than the custom makers turn out. A Kreiger will cost you an extra $70, but are cut rifled and hand-lapped and are a mainstay among match shooters. The lapped finish is finer in the Krieger I own than in the Criterion barrels I've bought. The Criterions get the Iosso/Flitz treatment from me, and I usually touch my crowns up slightly, but that's me being compulsive and not because I have any scientific evidence that it's necessary.
 
Went and shot my 16" 1-9 twist AR using Fed GMM 77gr and some of my 77gr smk reloads . I only shot to 300yds . The 1-9 had NO problem stabilizing them out to 300yds . It was very windy in the afternoon and I did not have my rifle fully zeroed so there was no real group per-say but I did have all 20 shots make little tiny perfect cicles in the paper . :) myth further busted .
 
Metal god said:
Went and shot my 16" 1-9 twist AR using Fed GMM 77gr and some of my 77gr smk reloads . I only shot to 300yds . The 1-9 had NO problem stabilizing them out to 300yds . It was very windy in the afternoon and I did not have my rifle fully zeroed so there was no real group per-say but I did have all 20 shots make little tiny perfect cicles in the paper . myth further busted .

Nice ! So is there a "double-dog-dare" to take 77's through a 1-9" 16" bbl AR out to 600 yds ? I might need to attempt this... ;)
 
Oley,

Yes. My brain wandered and twisted down the path. Nothing new.


M.G.,

Glad to see another 1 in 9 shooting these things. It's a funny business that some have problems and some don't. Awhile back someone published something on rifling twist tolerances and they weren't all dead on. It would be interesting to learn if some 1:9's are actually 1:9.5 or some are actually 1:8.7 or some such thing.

Otherwise, it's different factors that account for the different results and it will take some work to sort them out.
 
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