Anybody watch Zulu last night?
- Thread starter MattC58
- Start date
Mordwyn.45
New member
I believe the Royal Army's service rifle at the time of the Zulu war was the Martini- Henry single shot breach loader. I can't for the life of me remember the type of cartridge that it used but I think it was a monster of a heavy lead bullet.
At Rourks Drift the Zulu expected two ranks of volley fire, which was the ususal British tactic. The Zulu "platoon Sgt's" would watch for the British order to fire and then yell a warning. They would all hit the deck and then advance between volley's
When they utilised the third Rank of fire after they fell back to the commessary building, the timing of the Zulu advance was thrown off and the attack colapsed.
Does anybody know if any other action fought by royal forces ever matched the number of VC's awarded after Rourks Drift?
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"TANSTAAFL"- R.A. Heinlen
"Molon Labe"- Leonidas to Xerxes at Thermopile
At Rourks Drift the Zulu expected two ranks of volley fire, which was the ususal British tactic. The Zulu "platoon Sgt's" would watch for the British order to fire and then yell a warning. They would all hit the deck and then advance between volley's
When they utilised the third Rank of fire after they fell back to the commessary building, the timing of the Zulu advance was thrown off and the attack colapsed.
Does anybody know if any other action fought by royal forces ever matched the number of VC's awarded after Rourks Drift?
------------------
"TANSTAAFL"- R.A. Heinlen
"Molon Labe"- Leonidas to Xerxes at Thermopile
J
Jeff, CA
Guest
The cartridge in the Martini-Henry was called the .577-.450, IIRC. As I understand the turn-of-the-century British nomenclature, it was a .577 case necked down to .450. If you look closely during the fight scenes, you can see the cartridges, and they match that general description. It was probably at least as powerful, if not more so, than the .45-70. I wish I could get a rifle with that much oomph with so little recoil & muzzle blast 
I also thought that blond-haired leftenant looked a lot like Michael Caine. It turned out there was a reason for that.
I also thought that blond-haired leftenant looked a lot like Michael Caine. It turned out there was a reason for that.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff, CA:
I also thought that blond-haired leftenant looked a lot like Michael Caine. It turned out there was a reason for that.[/quote]
Yeah, that was entertaining. He looked a lot different than I'm used to.
I also thought that blond-haired leftenant looked a lot like Michael Caine. It turned out there was a reason for that.
[/quote]Yeah, that was entertaining. He looked a lot different than I'm used to.
K
KilgorII
Guest
Kinda odd for me, but I actually watched a little of it last night too. They definatly had single shots. That's about all i can add to this conversation. 
The 577/450 Martini Henry rifle, of which I possess a fine example made by WW Greener
, shoots a 480-gr paper-patch lead bullet at a respectable 1,500 f/s.The round was so well respected that, well into the 20th century, John "Pondoro" Taylor did not hesitate to take a sporterized version thereof against elephant.
The rifle itself sports a 30" (plus or minus) barrel, a wonderfully efficient swivel-block breech-loading action and a spike bayonet very similar to the older P53-family of rifle-musket. Some rifles have attachment for the later model (P87, I think) bayonet, which is a beautiful, sword-shaped affair with a bakelite handle.
Mine can keep 5 rounds within a 6" bull at 100 yards, in spite of the somewhat coarse sights.
The only problem with shooting these otherwise awesome rifles was the cost of the dies ($250, RCBS) and the brass (about $7 apiece).
But I am glad I made this investment!
Otherwise, I love the Martini action so much that I invested in a totally-custom .375 Nitro Express number made to look exactly like the military type while utilizing a more efficient sporting cartridge (270-gr 375s at exactly 2,000 f/s) and an awesome little set of Aussie-made, fully-adjustable sights. I also have a 303 British 1889 conversion of a Martini that is an amazingly accurate rifle, and a gorgeous little 22 Martini Gallery rifle made somewhere in the 20s.
I confess that many times I have stood with that big single-shot, bayonet fixed, in my living-room fighting imaginary Zulu warriors!
Usutsu!
[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 28, 2000).]
Sorry for the length, I got on a roll.
Yeah, the cartridges were something else. They took the old .577 Snider round and necked it down to .45, with 85 gr. of powder and a 480 gr ball. A killer on both ends.
There was a major scandal in the 1880s (I think) where the troops' bayonets bent when used. It turned out they were using the bayonets for cooking spitted meat and the heat drew the temper from the blade.
A big selling point with the Martini was that it used a coiled instead of a flat mainspring. Metallurgy being what it was in those days, mainsprings had a bad habit of breaking at the wrong time. The demonstrator would take out the spring, break it, put it back in and fire the gun with no problem. He'd then ask the buyer what other gun could do that. SOLD!
Back in the 50s, I put a tang sight on one of these Martinis and fired ONE round of original ammo. The stuff was so old the powder must have deteriorated to FFFFG, because the round didn't fire, it detonated.
I ended up with a nice inverted "V" under my shooting eye where the tang sight slammed into my face.
The cartridges used at Rorke's Drift were made like shotgun shells in that they had a hard base while the case reminded me of being made out of brass Reynold's Wrap - you could compress the empty case with your fingers. It's a wonder they worked at all, and they must have had a lot of head seperations. (See Gatling gun comment.)
For anyone who wants to dig deeper into this, get "The Washing of the Spears" by Donald Morris (probably $10-15 used). THE definitive book on the Zulu wars and the political idiocy that led up to it.
Morris has pictures of the Drift after the fight and even has a layout of the hospital and the routes taken by the soldiers as they abandoned the building.(!)
He also shows the regimental positions of the troops at Isandhlwana and again goes into great detail of that battle.
There's an interesting comment about the battle of Ulundi (Zulu capital) where it was said you could mark where the British Square was by the empty shell casings that were ankle-deep. They had Gatlings there but because of bad ammo, they constantly jammed.
Another interesting comment was that for these guys, it was literally their 5 minutes of fame. Most all disappeared from history.
Chard developed cancer of the tongue and died at age 50 in 1897. Bromhead died at age 46 in 1891, still a major. Hitch, with his shattered shoulder, was discharged and ended up as a London cabman. Hook became a guard at the British Museum and Cpl. Schiess died destitute in 1884 on a troopship headed for England. No mention of the others.
Great Stuff, and dammit, I've just talked myself into reading it again, for the third time.
[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited June 28, 2000).]
Yeah, the cartridges were something else. They took the old .577 Snider round and necked it down to .45, with 85 gr. of powder and a 480 gr ball. A killer on both ends.
There was a major scandal in the 1880s (I think) where the troops' bayonets bent when used. It turned out they were using the bayonets for cooking spitted meat and the heat drew the temper from the blade.
A big selling point with the Martini was that it used a coiled instead of a flat mainspring. Metallurgy being what it was in those days, mainsprings had a bad habit of breaking at the wrong time. The demonstrator would take out the spring, break it, put it back in and fire the gun with no problem. He'd then ask the buyer what other gun could do that. SOLD!
Back in the 50s, I put a tang sight on one of these Martinis and fired ONE round of original ammo. The stuff was so old the powder must have deteriorated to FFFFG, because the round didn't fire, it detonated.
I ended up with a nice inverted "V" under my shooting eye where the tang sight slammed into my face.
The cartridges used at Rorke's Drift were made like shotgun shells in that they had a hard base while the case reminded me of being made out of brass Reynold's Wrap - you could compress the empty case with your fingers. It's a wonder they worked at all, and they must have had a lot of head seperations. (See Gatling gun comment.)
For anyone who wants to dig deeper into this, get "The Washing of the Spears" by Donald Morris (probably $10-15 used). THE definitive book on the Zulu wars and the political idiocy that led up to it.
Morris has pictures of the Drift after the fight and even has a layout of the hospital and the routes taken by the soldiers as they abandoned the building.(!)
He also shows the regimental positions of the troops at Isandhlwana and again goes into great detail of that battle.
There's an interesting comment about the battle of Ulundi (Zulu capital) where it was said you could mark where the British Square was by the empty shell casings that were ankle-deep. They had Gatlings there but because of bad ammo, they constantly jammed.
Another interesting comment was that for these guys, it was literally their 5 minutes of fame. Most all disappeared from history.
Chard developed cancer of the tongue and died at age 50 in 1897. Bromhead died at age 46 in 1891, still a major. Hitch, with his shattered shoulder, was discharged and ended up as a London cabman. Hook became a guard at the British Museum and Cpl. Schiess died destitute in 1884 on a troopship headed for England. No mention of the others.
Great Stuff, and dammit, I've just talked myself into reading it again, for the third time.
[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited June 28, 2000).]
My opinion is the movie sucked. The actual battle may have happened roughly the way it was portrayed. But IMO, the choreography was very poorly done, as the viewer cannot possibly believe that in the scenes shown, the Brits were able to turn back the massive attacks shown. Thoughout all the attacks, it looked plainly as if the Zulus were acting basically in slow motion, and just when they could have "gone for the jugular", they turn back volunatarily, despite easily overcoming the physical obstables and overwhelming numbers. If the story is true, then there MUST have been some circumstances not portrayed in the movie, such as better phyical obtacles, or not as lopsided ratio of soldiers to attackers. Could have been real good, and probably would be if made today, but stinks as is, IMO.
Having said that, the historial aspects and gunny stuff are of course very interesting. Don't want to be a total "prig".
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited June 28, 2000).]
Having said that, the historial aspects and gunny stuff are of course very interesting. Don't want to be a total "prig".
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited June 28, 2000).]
Futo - The movie followed the story fairly closely, except for that stupid missionary and his daughter routine, which never happened.
What saved their fanny was fire discipline and beuacoup guts. It was a near thing, but the Zulus were like our Indians in some respects in that they liked to play the odds, and if they started losing too many, despite their superiority, they called it off.
Baker and Caine looked NOTHING like Chard and Bromhead, but that's expected. However,
the movie was one of the more accurate ones.
There was a footnote at the end thanking Chief Buteleizi (sp?) of the Zulus for their
help. He's now a political power over there against the ANC.
What saved their fanny was fire discipline and beuacoup guts. It was a near thing, but the Zulus were like our Indians in some respects in that they liked to play the odds, and if they started losing too many, despite their superiority, they called it off.
Baker and Caine looked NOTHING like Chard and Bromhead, but that's expected. However,
the movie was one of the more accurate ones.
There was a footnote at the end thanking Chief Buteleizi (sp?) of the Zulus for their
help. He's now a political power over there against the ANC.
Thanks all for the background. I loved the movie. About the choreography. If I remember correctly, the director could not get the Zulus to quite understand what he wanted them to do in the battle scenes - so he showed them a cowboy movie (John Wayne of course). Seriously, that was the story told by the gentleman who introduced the film. John
Okay, this is coming from a fuzzy memory waaaay back yonder, so I fully expect to be corrected....
The ratio of Zulus to Brits shown in the movie is accurate. However (somebody check me on this), the two impis (regiments) that attacked the mission station at Rorke's Drift had not seen battle, and they weren't under the command of Cetchewayo.
They had missed the battle at Isandhlwanda, and were spoiling for a fight. Rorke's Drift happened to be handy.
I think.
LawDog
The ratio of Zulus to Brits shown in the movie is accurate. However (somebody check me on this), the two impis (regiments) that attacked the mission station at Rorke's Drift had not seen battle, and they weren't under the command of Cetchewayo.
They had missed the battle at Isandhlwanda, and were spoiling for a fight. Rorke's Drift happened to be handy.
I think.
LawDog
Postscript.
The words to the song, "Men of Harlech" can be found here:
http://argo.acronet.net/~robokopp/welsh/menofhar.htm
There is a traditional verse and the verse used in the movie.
LawDog
The words to the song, "Men of Harlech" can be found here:
http://argo.acronet.net/~robokopp/welsh/menofhar.htm
There is a traditional verse and the verse used in the movie.
LawDog
The Lone Ranger
New member
The Battle of Rourke's Drift still represents the greatest number of VCs awarded in a single action.
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"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands.") -
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD).
------------------
"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands.") -
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD).
Victoria Crosses - There probably would have been more, but they didn't give posthumous VC awards until 1907. That's when Lts. Nevill Coghill and Teignmouth Melvill, who died trying to protect the regimental colors at Isandhlwana, got theirs.
Until then, the best they got was a mention in the London Gazette that both "would have been recommended to Her Majesty for the VC had they survived. "
That no doubt applied to Joseph Williams and others killed at Rorke's Drift.
Until then, the best they got was a mention in the London Gazette that both "would have been recommended to Her Majesty for the VC had they survived. "
That no doubt applied to Joseph Williams and others killed at Rorke's Drift.
I liked Zulu. If you liked it see if you can locate " Zulu Dawn" which is a prequel to Zulu. It shows the destruction of the British forces at Isandhlwanda which led to the fight at Rorke's Drift. I once saw them as a double feature. They were both first rate pictures but I got a severe case of combat fatigue.
Bruce in West Oz
New member
We're talking one of my favourite movies here
It is an intense movie, which despite being some 36 years old now, has stood the test of time remarkably well. In fact, I almost shudder to think what a "modern" director might do to it in a remake -- perhaps the Webleys held sideways, slow-mo bullets leaving smoke trails, the Welsh soldiers singing a "meaningful rap tune"???? But of course, in today's PC society, the Zulus would have to win.
Not that it's perfect as it is:
• There is some speculation that the Webleys carried by Chard and Bromhead are actually Mark VIs of WWI vintage.
• You can see a number of Zulu warriors wearing wristwatches -- these were part-payment for appearing in the movie.
• In the close-in fighting, Hook clearly bayonets a Zulu under the armpit, not through him as the mark on the wall shows.
• Colour Sergeant Bourne was actually only a little fella, just in his early 20s. He was the youngest CS in the British Army -- and I could never work out why he didn't get a VC too
• Hook was, in fact, teetotal
Incidentally, I've read that the Zulus were led by Cetsewayo's son, in defiance of his father's order that no Zulus were to attack entrenched British forces, because to do so reduced the effectiveness of their attack strategies. The losses suffered by not following his father's advice (and maybe the worry of what dear ol' Dad was going to do to him), may have been a trigger for not pressing home the attack despite the overwhelming numbers.
416Rigby and Oatka -- thanks for the great background info!!
And "Men of Harlech" (especially the movie version) still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
B
It is an intense movie, which despite being some 36 years old now, has stood the test of time remarkably well. In fact, I almost shudder to think what a "modern" director might do to it in a remake -- perhaps the Webleys held sideways, slow-mo bullets leaving smoke trails, the Welsh soldiers singing a "meaningful rap tune"???? But of course, in today's PC society, the Zulus would have to win.
Not that it's perfect as it is:
• There is some speculation that the Webleys carried by Chard and Bromhead are actually Mark VIs of WWI vintage.
• You can see a number of Zulu warriors wearing wristwatches -- these were part-payment for appearing in the movie.
• In the close-in fighting, Hook clearly bayonets a Zulu under the armpit, not through him as the mark on the wall shows.
• Colour Sergeant Bourne was actually only a little fella, just in his early 20s. He was the youngest CS in the British Army -- and I could never work out why he didn't get a VC too
• Hook was, in fact, teetotal
Incidentally, I've read that the Zulus were led by Cetsewayo's son, in defiance of his father's order that no Zulus were to attack entrenched British forces, because to do so reduced the effectiveness of their attack strategies. The losses suffered by not following his father's advice (and maybe the worry of what dear ol' Dad was going to do to him), may have been a trigger for not pressing home the attack despite the overwhelming numbers.
416Rigby and Oatka -- thanks for the great background info!!
And "Men of Harlech" (especially the movie version) still makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
B