Any one shooting 200 gr, .38 Specials

I've run 200 gr bullets in .38 S&W through my Webley Mk. IV in an attempt to duplicate the original British .38/200 loading.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I've run both the Lyman 358430 and NOE 363200 over 3 gr of Unique in starline brass with Winchester small pistol (non-magnum) primers and had no indication of excess pressure (primers looked normal, extracted easily) in my 4" Webley Mk. IV, recoil felt roughly equivalent to that of standard 158 gr LRN .38 Special factory ammo in a medium-frame revolver. I have, however, since chronographed that loading with the Lyman 358430 and was getting velocities a little too high for comfort (right at 700 fps). I think I may back down to 2.5 gr of Unique and run them over the chrono again to see if the velocities are closer to my comfort zone (600-650 fps).

I cannot stress enough that the aforementioned data is beyond current book maximums (my 49th Edition Lyman manual lists 1.9 gr of Unique as max for the 358430). Such heavy loadings should only be used in Colt or S&W solid-frame revolvers or Webley and Enfield top-breaks. Top-breaks made by companies like H&R, Iver Johnson, Hopkins & Allen, Forehand & Wadsworth, and even S&W simply are not strong enough for these sorts of loadings (they're also most likely the reason that published data is kept so mild).
 
I was mainly considering it for my lever action, its 357 anyways and can handle pretty stout loads. I need to locate a cheap mold or find a supploer of whelen bullets that I can fit into a 38 case. I guess I should have started this in reloading section because I'm more curious about loads that have been tried. Thanks for the input, I don't stock unique but it gives me a baseline to work.from.
 
There comes a point when a heavier bullet slows velocity to the point that you get less penetration, or no pentration at all. The theory that a 200gr bullet from a .38 snubby will be more lethal on a large animal would also imply that throwing a brick would be even more lethal, and penetrate even better.

If a non-expanding 158gr from your snubby wont do the job, you need a bigger gun.
 
I experimented with some 190s and observed tumbling. Hit the paper sideways frequently. IMO 158 is a heavy 38 bullet.
 
I have not loaded 200 grain .38 Specials, although I once did a little work with 190-200 gr bullets in .357 Magnum in order to make IPSC Major with less blast than a 158. I don't think it really helped a whole lot. You could tell a difference in slow fire but not rapid.

I think it is hard to beat Jeff Cooper's recommendation (Yes, he thought a .38 had its uses for hideout.) He said to load a 160 gr SWC and a heavy load which I won't repeat here because I might not remember it correctly and even if I did, it would be what he called "contributing to the delinquency of a handloader."

I just go with 158 gr hollowpoint FBI loads.
 
I have shot several different 195-210 Grain loads in .38 spl and .357 mag over smallish charges of Unique and Red Dot. There was a group buy on another forum for a NOE .360 200
Grn Keith swc a couple years back. It shoots well in everything that I have tried it, from various 2" .38 snubs to a 16" Handi Rifle. Yes it will generally shoot high in fixed sight guns. It sits low in the case and takes up a lot of the wasted air space in a .38 spl or .357
Mag case, and in my experience gives very complete powder burn and consistent and low standard deviations. They also have tremendous penetration in water or meat.

Many many many people like to quote old articles about 200 grain loads that get stopped by old war great coats, or law enforcement tests where they scratch a heavy steel fender of an old car. I have read those articles myself, but that is only one part of the story. Flat point or lsw bullets cast hard from some of these molds and loaded just to standard pressure levels can give very different performance under other circumstances. I full expect that 200 noe lsw cast out of wheel weights will shoot through any critter that I am likely to encounter around the gulf coast area. that same bullet loaded deep in a .357 mag Case and a moderate charge of Red Dot powder will run about 950fps out of that Handi Rifle with single digit SD and sounds about like a standard velocity 22 lr, but with plenty thump for varmints and predator hunting at moderate ranges.



They don't turn a .38 to the Hammer of Thor, but anybody that writes off 200
Ish grain modern hand loads due to old articles and 50 year old
Factory ballistics is missing out. Low noise, great accuracy,
Moderate recoil and lots of penetration; what's not to like?!?
 
thanks revolver geek, i'll keep an eye out for a decent priced mold or bullets. I am not looking at it like the next great defense round, I have other guns for that. I just like to experiment and have fun. I would assume the recoil would be light and I don't see why it wouldn't be a straight shooter at moderate distances with a fast enough twist.
 
This is always one of my favorite reloading topics. I have been loading and shooting the Lyman 358430, cast by Magnus Bullets, in .38 special revolvers for several years now. It's become my favorite outdoor load.

Lately, I've been using 3.4-3.5 grains of Unique and have had outstanding accuracy from my two inch S&W 638. I 've chronographed this load at a little less than 600 fps from this gun, but it works. I've shot rabbits at thirty yards and dispatched the meanest varmints with it. This fairly quiet load always seems to be effective.

There is a little bit of a learning curve shooting these bullets in fixed sight guns. My load hits about 7" high at twenty yards and about POA at 40 yards. I have actually begun to like the arrangement better than having to worry about "hold over" at these fairly close ranges.
 
38-200

From what I have read on the subject the British got away from the 200 gr loading because it did tumble after impact but not because of it not penetrating but because it would and cause gastly wounds when it hit soft flesh.That was out of the 38 S & W or 38 New Colt Police which is virtually the same cartridge.It could only achieve something like 700 fps.
 
I never bought the Brit line about the .38-200 effectiveness

The trials board telling me that a .38-200 is as effective as a .45-265 at the same velocity seems a little suspicious to me.
 
The trials board telling me that a .38-200 is as effective as a .45-265 at the same velocity seems a little suspicious to me.
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Probably what they are referring to is sectional density. A 200 grain .357 bullet would have a SD of about .224 giving it a big edge on a .452 weighing 265 which would come in around .185. A 45 bullet of about 320 grains would behave about like the 200 grain 38. This is provided the bullet construction is the same as well as the velocity.
 
The British found that the 200 grain bullet fired from the .38/200/.38S&W was as effective as the heavier 265 grain bullet of the .455 Webley.
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This was the official line. My (admittedly limited) research shows that this opinion was not widely shared by troops who had used both in combat.

As for using the 200gr slug in leverguns, watch the LENGTH carefully. The Marlin, particularly can be loaded with ammo that is too long to feed from the magazine.

I still have some 210gr LRN slugs (no idea who cast them), that are very long, and seated to the top groove are still to long to work in some guns.

There are essentially two schools of stopping power, fast and light (JHP) and heavy and slow (RN, SWC). Both work under the right conditions, both fail under the wrong conditions. There is no magic bullet.

(heavy and fast seems to be the best of both worlds, BUT cannot be achieved with many cartridges and guns)

I don't know what today's 200gr load is like, but I learned back in the 70s that the standard 200gr police load (of the era) would not reliably penetrate a car windshield at point blank range, if fired from a snub nose (2").

(the easy fix is don't shoot car windshields :rolleyes:)
(note that there are other "standard" rounds that also will not reliably penetrate a car windshield, so this isn't the condemnation of the .38 it might sound like ;))

Good luck with your heavy bullet quest!
 
I recall back in my pin shooting days some revolver shooters loading 38s with what was called "Lincoln Logs" to shoot pins.
They did a good job on moving the pins with authority.

I may very well be wrong on this but it seems the weight of those slugs was 230 grs and they looked like a full wadcutter.
I don't recall what powder they were using or the velocity they were getting.
If there's any revolver pin shooters here maybe they can shed some light on this.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
200s

I've run 200 gr bullets in .38 S&W through my Webley Mk. IV in an attempt to duplicate the original British .38/200 loading.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I've run both the Lyman 358430 and NOE 363200 over 3 gr of Unique in starline brass with Winchester small pistol (non-magnum) primers and had no indication of excess pressure (primers looked normal, extracted easily) in my 4" Webley Mk. IV, recoil felt roughly equivalent to that of standard 158 gr LRN .38 Special factory ammo in a medium-frame revolver. I have, however, since chronographed that loading with the Lyman 358430 and was getting velocities a little too high for comfort (right at 700 fps). I think I may back down to 2.5 gr of Unique and run them over the chrono again to see if the velocities are closer to my comfort zone (600-650 fps).

I cannot stress enough that the aforementioned data is beyond current book maximums (my 49th Edition Lyman manual lists 1.9 gr of Unique as max for the 358430). Such heavy loadings should only be used in Colt or S&W solid-frame revolvers or Webley and Enfield top-breaks. Top-breaks made by companies like H&R, Iver Johnson, Hopkins & Allen, Forehand & Wadsworth, and even S&W simply are not strong enough for these sorts of loadings (they're also most likely the reason that published data is kept so mild).
Click to expand...

+1.....my results exactly.
The origional British load for the .38/200 was 3.5 grains of smokeless propellant and the 200 grain Mk.I bullet. This gave them a MV of 600 fps and a ME of 160 ft.lbs. When they changed to the lighter Mk.II bullet, the charge weight was increased to 4.0 grs.
My favorite bullet for the .38 S&W is the 200 grain LRN from NEI's mold #149a....very similar profile to the British MK.II bullet described in the LOC for the Webley MK.IV (.380 inch MK.II...a jacketed bullet of 178 grains, The 200 grain MK.I lead bullet has a rounder profile) .
I just now checked NEIs website and #149a is not listed in their new catalog (or I could not find it.)
It would be too long to load in a .38 S&W Special..
Here's a pic comparing......38 Specials on the left, .38 S&W on the right. the other is the .38 Colt.

Pete
 
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