Any legal consequences of prohibiting firearms in the workplace?

My recommendation is if you feel you need a gun to be safe on the way to work, keep it.

Either way, if they did fire you because you did something silly and someone saw the gun... It's easier to replace your job than it is to replace your life!
;)
 
First, most employers in most (if not all) states are covered by worker's compensation laws. These provide the sole vehicle for compensation against your employer (not a third party, though) for workplace injuries. That's true whether you're attacked, a fellow worker is careless and hurts you, or the roof caves in. So, in a sense, sure...you can recover from your employer if you're hurt by a bad guy.

Second, as has been thoroughly noted here and elsewhere, you don't have constitutional rights against private citizens, including your employer. Your employer doesn't have to allow you, for instance, your First Amendment rights. You don't get to walk around the workplace shouting anti-Republican slogans if your employer prohibits that, while you can do that out on a city sidewalk.

Now, one supposes the government could change this constitutional regime by requiring private parties to respect everyone's constitutional rights. You can imagine (barely) a law that requires you (and your employer) to protect everyone's First Amendment rights. You can therefore imagine protesters setting up shop on your lawn...or at least anyone whom you invite on your property setting up shop to rant and rave, with you powerless to do anything about it. And unhappy system, in my estimation.
 
Shouting slogans during work is clearly detrimental to the work place and doing your job. So that argument is specious.

Second, malls have been viewed as public places in some cases, such that folks have been able to set up advocacy booths for various causes - as long as they are not disruptive.

Postulating a disruptive behavior is a straw man argument.
 
Shouting slogans during work is clearly detrimental to the work place and doing your job. So that argument is specious.

It's not an argument. It's the American system. And the law says that private folks get to decide what they put up with. Private folks are not bound to respect your First Amendment rights, nor your Second Amendment rights, nor the 4th, 5th, etc....point is, the constitution maximizes the freedom of individuals in dealing with each other, and minimizes the freedom of the government in dealing with and individual. All arguments about scope of regulation and freedoms exist in that framework.

If you wish to change the entire American system of government to say that private people have to abide by the Bill of Rights in all their dealings with others, well, be prepared.
 
mapsjanhere:So are you pretty upset when you go to the mall and see the same painter. He is probably packing there. Do you flee in terror from the licensed citizen?

I would be happy to exclude the private home from my provisions for employers, if you are scared of the licensed citizen.

Interesting view point - here on a gun forum, we have had several threads of folks being scared of licensed citizens in their home. However, they walk among us - in the mall, in church (depending), in restaurants, on the street.

Hidden and armed - perhaps seething with unknown psychopathologies or bizarre political beliefs, they glide down our streets and in cars.

Why - I'm convinced - no one should carry guns!!! I'm with you, Diane and Chuck!

Mapsjanhere had a good point, company property is owned by the corporation and is subject to whatever restrictions they decide to put upon the property within the limits of the law. Corporate/business property does fall under some additional restrictions based on protected classes that your home does not. You as a private homeowner can choose not to employ lawn maintenance based on race but cannot as a business owner. Concealed weapons carriers do not constitute a protected class, so, like it or not, companies can choose to allow or not allow firearms on their property. You have the right to seek other employment.

Interesting view point - here on a gun forum, we have had several threads of folks being scared of licensed citizens in their home. However, they walk among us - in the mall, in church (depending), in restaurants, on the street.

Let's get away from calling folks "scared" who choose to exercise their own rights on their own property. Your rights end where mine start, and that's my property line in the case of my home. Carry where you want elsewhere, but if you are in my home, I make the rules.
 
re:GlenEMeyer

My position is clear. The right of self-defense and carry, in my view of morality, supercedes the right of the employer to worry about his or her liability. Thus, this right should be enshrined with the same force as others in the BOR. Might we have a constitutional amendment for such - sure. The only exception being highly technical. Thus, the other arguments about current laws would be moot.


What if having guns around violates the morality or religious beliefs of the business owner? What would be more important, his first amendment rights or someone else's second amendment rights?
 
Al, a question and sorry I forgot the legal doctrine of this, but can't contracts be null and void where one party has an unfair advantage over the other? I might be off here but my dim memory recalls such a doctrine.

Contracts may be null and void when one party has an advantage that is akin to forcing the other party sign the contract under less than voluntary conditions. Typical employment is fully voluntary and so would not apply here.

Otherwise, unfair advantage refers to those who don't have the intellectual capacity to be able to comprehend contracts or those who have been duped through dishonesty, or where one party takes advantage of the other because of an inequitable knowledge that the ignorant party has no ability to have in that situation.
 
roy reali said:
What if having guns around violates the morality or religious beliefs of the business owner?

What if being female, African American, or Hispanic violates a business onwer's morality or religiious beliefs? See that argument only works in the purely private (as in your home) context. Once you open a business to the public those "rights" are changed. Gun owners are not a "protected class" but I think Glenn (and I) would argue that they should be or that if the business owner denies them the right to carry then the business owner should assume full responsibility for the employee's security.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Typical employment is fully voluntary and so would not apply here.

My thought is that a lot of employment relating to this issue is atypical.

Yes, theoretically we are all free to look for work elsewhere. However, we know that reality is not that cut and dried. Jobs are not always so easy to get and not everyone has the resources to go into business for themselves.

Also, when it becomes "industry standard" for companies of any appreciable size to deny CCW to employees while knowing they are free from lawsuit success if employees are then injured by workplace violence then the "voluntary" part of employment isn't there IMO. Morally, one should not have to choose between safety and feeding your family.

So, most companies deny CCW due to venial concerns about bottomline. Most available work is with said companies in a given community. Is that fully voluntary? I think not.
 
The right to carry a gun is a right the state gives you for property it controls. It's not a right the state can give you over property it doesn't own. Like your driver's license doesn't permit you to drive on private property without consent.
If I look at the number of places excluded in my state, including all state parks, I'd say we have a bigger fight to get the state at least to allow us to carry everywhere it controls before we try to get private property owners to surrender their rights.
 
The state has lots of rules and regulations for property you own.

Please sit on your front lawn naked when the school bus arrives. Please refuse to have working toilets in your restaurant.

Another specious argument that your property is immune from state mandates that contribute to the common good.

TG - handled the specious argument on religion. Go back and google the arguments that occurred during the debate on miscegenation laws and/or segregation. You can find 'preachers' claiming religious reasons for discrimination.
 
mapsjanhere said:
The right to carry a gun is a right the state gives you

Not a small point but the right to carry a gun is not "given" to me by the state but rather predates the Constitution and the 2A. The state regulates the right if it passes court muster but CCW is not a priviledge (at least not in TN:D). The state is barred from infringing on that right (a court decides what infringment means) but doesn't give me any right.
 
So, most companies deny CCW due to venial concerns about bottomline. Most available work is with said companies in a given community. Is that fully voluntary? I think not.

Since this discussion is about legal aspects, do you have a citation for legislation or significant court case that defines employment as not being voluntary?
 
Private Property Rights

The Founding Fathers upheld the economic view of property. They believed that private property ownership, as defined under common law, pre-existed government. The state and federal governments were the mere contractual agents of the people, not sovereign lords over them. All rights, not specifically delegated to the government, remained with the people--including the common-law provisions of private property. Consequently, the constitutional rights regarding free speech, freedom of religion, the right of assembly, and private property rights are all claims that individuals may hold and exercise against the government itself. In brief, private property refers to the rights of owners to use their possessions which are enforceable against all nonowners--even the government.

Our country was founded by men that regarded private property rights above all else. That is the unique experiment that was called The United States of America.
 
Since this discussion is about legal aspects, do you have a citation for legislation or significant court case that defines employment as not being voluntary?

Don't have to. The state regulates the employment contract on a regular basis. Minimum wage, overtime, child labor, OSH, the right to know act, FLSA, EEO, and others.

As to the earlier argument that forcing a property owner violates the 5th Amendment as a taking, I will repeat:

The Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment, made applicable to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment, provides that private property shall not be taken for public use without just compensation. The Takings Clause does not prohibit the taking of private property, but instead places a condition on the exercise of that power. It is designed not to limit the governmental interference with property rights per se, but rather to secure compensation in the event of otherwise proper interference amounting to a taking.

In addition to outright appropriation of property, the government may effect a taking through a regulation if it is so onerous that its effect is tantamount to a direct appropriation, this is known as "regulatory taking". see Lingle v. Chevron U.S.A., Inc., 544 U.S. 528 (2005).

In Lingle, the Supreme Court provided a framework for addressing regulatory takings. First, a court must determine if the regulation results in one of three types of regulatory takings. These occur: (1) where a regulation requires an owner to suffer a "permanent physical invasion" of the property; or (2) where a regulation completely deprives an owner of "all economically beneficial uses" of the property; or (3) a government demands that a landowner dedicate an easement allowing public access to her property as a condition of obtaining a development permit.

People carrying on your property do not deprive owners of all economically beneficial uses of their property, but do result in an unwelcome physical invasion onto a business owner's property by individuals transporting and storing firearms in their vehicles. It is apparent the invasion onto an employers property is unwelcome if they have corporate policies preventing weapons on property. see Loretto v. Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corporation, 458 U.S. 419(1982)

In Loretto, the Court distinguished temporary physical "invasions" from permanent physical "occupations." The court ruled that an invasion is temporary, while an occupation is permanent.

A physical occupation, as defined by the Court, is a permanent and exclusive occupation by the government that destroys the owner's right to possession, use, and disposal of the property. see Boise Cascade Corp. v. United States, 296 F.3d 1339, 1353 (Fed. Cir. 2002)

People carrying weapons do not force any permanent "physical structure" on an owner's property. Instead, they force an unwanted physical invasion by third parties engaging in an unwanted activity. The invasion itself is not "permanent" because the individuals engaging in the unwanted activity (carrying guns) do not remain on the property at all times, as would an actual physical structure. Nor does CCW cause a "permanent" invasion with regard to a particular parcel of property, such as the public bike paths at issue in public easement cases. In those cases, even if no person ever chose to ride his bike across a public path, there is nevertheless governmental intrusion because that particular parcel of land is stripped of its right to exclude.

If no individuals choose to engage in the activity of CCW, landowners will not suffer unwanted invasions. It is therefore hard to classify the invasion caused by CCW as permanent for purposes of a takings analysis, thus a person who carries a weapon on your property under the law has not violated any of the three prongs necessary to constitute a taking of property under the 5th Amendment.

Our country was founded by men that regarded private property rights above all else. That is the unique experiment that was called The United States of America.

and where in the founding documents is this written?
 
Don't have to. The state regulates the employment contract on a regular basis. Minimum wage, overtime, child labor, OSH, the right to know act, FLSA, EEO, and others.

Do any classify employment as non-voluntary? None that I can find. Nor can I find any legislation or labor decisions denoting employment is not voluntary because companies are located within a given community.

The only employment I can find as being non voluntary pertains to prison labor and even then whether or not it is actually non voluntary is a bit moot given prisoners aren't supposed to carry guns at work.
 
So if employment is voluntary, as a business owner, I can set up a rule that states all female employees must have sex with me? A rule prohibiting female employees from possessing any item of clothing that covers the breasts? A rule requiring that all employees work one day a week without pay? How about one which requires all employees submit to a daily beating?

Sorry, the "employment is voluntary, so I can do what I want" argument won't fly.
 
More Intrusion?

I agree, the government already regulates and controls private property activities. Some of you want even more intrusion. If some of this administration's plans go through, you'll be heaven then. The government already regulates medical care in this country, why not more then?

I am a border-line liberatarian, I really believe that government involvement in private property matters should be next to zero. If I own a house, a business, or whatever, I pay the taxes, I enjoy the rewards and face the risks, no political unit should tell me who I can have enter my place or not. Yes, its being done now. It doesn't make it right, and forcing more regulations on me won't make it better.

By the way, read the Federalist Papers if you want to know what our forefathers thought about private property.

One more point. I don't see anyone here upset about gun bans in Federal Buildings. Why not? Those, at least, are public institutions.
 
Financial Risks?

Some of you here mention that there would be no financial risk to a business owner by allowing employees to carry guns. I hate to inform you, but you are wrong. I used to work in the insurance industry. There is something called workers' compensation. Here is a link to prove my point.

http://www.workerscompensation.com/compnewsnetwork/index.php?news=4558

If a workplace gun results in a workplace injury, guess who will be dinged with added insurance premiums. Some workers' comp carriers already raise rates when guns are involved.
 
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