Any feedback on Krav Maga?

Madgrad:

From what I've seen Krav Maga does NOT address all three.

Even by your own admission, Krav Maga lacks good techniques from the ground (that violates "techniques in all ranges of fight" and "free sparring, again in all ranges of fight" categories). "Training not to go to the ground" and knowing how to get out once you are unwillingly forced there are two VERY different things.

A lot of people with little interest or knowledge in ground techniques will denigrate the likes of Judo, Sambo and BJJ - often justifying their bias by stating something like "you should never go to the deck in a real fight, because the other guy's friend can bash your skull..." ad naseum (funny thing - I've been bashed in the skull from behind by another guy while I was trying to "box" with one guy while on my FEET - guess that vulnerability is NOT uniquely for grappling).

What's interesting about it is that these very people don't seem to recognize what unarmed self-defense system is all about. For me, such a thing is not for getting into fights or "winning" in a conventional sense. It's about escaping from a bad situation unscathed PARTICULARLY when one is presented with an UNEXPECTED situation. When you are violently assaulted and ALREADY knocked to the ground from behind (and you either did not have a weapon or dropped it), the last thing you need in your mind is "you should not go to the ground at any cost" mantra. What you need is at that poin tis "Relax! I'm okay here, because I'm not finished yet. Now, avoid strikes and how can I get up safely and run away?"

The reason for being up is to re-gain (or keep) mobility SO YOU CAN EVADE AND ESCAPE and, by GOD, NOT SO THAT YOU CAN STAY AND FIGHT (using whatever golden technique you think you have).

I should qualify above statement by adding the following. At the end, it's the man and not the "system." Why? Because no "martial art" or "combative system" is a monolith. In BJJ, for example, the sportive style BJJ taught by Rorion Gracie is a very different thing of BJJ than what Mario Sperry advocates for the street or the NHB cage. They are both called BJJ, they share many base techniques, but at the end, the mentality, focus and choice (or emphasis) of techniques are VERY different.

Likewise, I imagine "Krav Maga" runs a whole gamut of things from foot-slap type training to a serious combination of combatives and free-sparring training. Ultimately, it is not what the "advocates" of various systems say it is, rather it is how you practice at your place of instruction.

BTW, one guy who is really seems to be a pioneer in combining many of these elements is Roy Harris of Progressive Fighting Systems. Among other things, he is the first American black belt in BJJ. He is a JKD concepts and Kali instructor under Paul Vunak. He also teaches Savate. He was a LEO at one time. Though I do not have a personal knowledge of him, he seems to have a very intelligently set up phase program that progresses from shadow boxing and BJJ to stick/knife fighting and Kina Mutai (biting and gouging set up art).

Skorzeny
 
One more thing. As much as I LIKE BJJ and Muay Thai, the one really overlooked hybrid system in the US is SAMBO.

The Soviets really did a good job of developing a great combination of 1) sportive Sambo (throwing and grappling with uniforms), 2) self-defense Sambo (combative style training) and 3) military Sambo (weapons, such as knives, rifles and especially SPADES plus others).

Sambo is a sort of AK-47 or Makarov of the martial arts. It borrowed heavily from foreign designs (Judo, wrestling, etc.), but distilled to local flavors, emphasizing simplicty, reliability and practicality. It is definitely not as "pretty" or "artsy" as Western and American systems (but then again, neither are AKs or Makarovs), but like the guns, they seem to work well ENOUGH.

I wish there were more Sambo schools in the US.

Lastly, there seems to be a great deal of emphasis on what varous LEO agencies adopt as a means to "prove" superiority. To me, this has about as much validation as the US military teaching basic BJJ to soldiers (Wwhhaatt??? What the hell for?) - which is to say very little.

In the first place, cops and soldiers cannot run away from a "scene." A civilian sure can and most definitely SHOULD. Even between cops and soldiers, levels of acceptable lethality are VASTLY different. Secondly, cops and soldiers (as demonstrated by BJJ being adopted for example) are just as subject to fanciful whims of marketing and hype as the rest of us are.

Skorzeny
 
I agree, Skorzeny, Sambo is really great. It's an art born of guys who experimented endlessly and borrowed heavily. Some people think that Sambo is just ground stuff, but they have filled in all the ranges. I also picked up some "Furniture Sambo" from Brett Jacques, cool stuff. Throwing chairs with your feet, locking people out with tables, etc.
 
Mort:

I don't know the man or his work, but I've heard that Dr. Jacques is the real thing.

Any bozo who thinks that SAMBO means nothing but throwing and grappling about in funny jackets should acquaint himself with an MVD Spetsnaz tooling about with his spade.

Go up and ask the man what he thinks he can do with "that little shovel" of his. Insult his mother (or wife). If that doesn't seem to awaken the man from his vodka-inspired stupor, ask him if "Spetsnaz" means "inclined toward other men" in Russian.

More likely than not, the tip of the shovel will be between your eyes shortly before you lose consciousness. Hey, but you'll know what Sambo is, eh?

Skorzeny
 
Sambo

Skorzeny and mort,
some excellent points.BUT...
Yes,sport Sambo and the basic self defence system versions are borrowed very heavily from other arts.THe best are taken (or were taken) from then and tried,tested and put together.
But,like mentioned,what some units in MVD Spetsnaz use is called Combat Sambo Spetsnaz or referred to as Rukopashni Boii.This is a truly native Russian art.This was taught to about mid-level Spetsnaz.Basic Spetsnaz were taught a Karate/TKD/other mixes alternative,but again,heavily modified to suit the needs of this unique group of Special forces.
Rukopashni Boi,or comabat Sambo Spetsnaz,is VERY lethal.One learned in this art and well.....the Krav maga practicioner or practicioner of most other conventional arts better run away.Spetsnaz are the best military force in the worl at H2H combat,there is just no question of this,their training regime requires them to practice this efficiently,ruthlessly and often.A Spetsnaz sparring session is brutal
For the man in the street?Effective?Of course.Do a little research and you will find out just how often Spetsnaz have to put H2H skills into practice,they are more than just soldiers on the field.
But one thing about Krav Maga.It is a very good,effective art for self defense.It will teach you very basic,brutal techniques and the training/sparring sessions in Krav maga are excellent,very realistic.
 
Acctually, Krav Maga has a VERY GOOD system of groundfighting to deal with groundwork, however it does not work to well playfighting on the ground. The system emphezices simple techniques of attacking and getting up as soon as possible, not locking and wrestling. It also includes biting, fingers to the eyes etc. These are things that will stop a groundfighter from "wanting" to make groundfighting.

This I am telling you from a background as KM instructor and Shootfighting instructor for many years. There is a big difference from sport combat and real combat.

KM is not suited for UFC because of this. It is in our nature to deal with an attack in any way possible. No rules. And in even the first UFC before all the rules, there where some important rules: No attacking eyes or groin, no biting, etc.. All things which are very important tools in fighting.

The KM system is with out any doubt one of the most complete system when it comes to dealing with all aspects of fighting. We include weapons training. If suddenly attacked on the street you might not have the time to draw the weapon (yes I am a firearms instructor and love my gun) at time you are attaced, but with a good base in KM or any other realistic system the unarmed defenses might give you the time to introduce the firearm into the fight. This is training usually done in a bit higher level training in KM, but it IS IN THE SYSTEM.

To say that KM only works against untrained and simple attackers is just showing a very limited knowledge of what KM is. It is true that in the basic levels there are techniques against basic attacks and threats. However these are still, luckily, the most common attacks on the streets around the world, and the student has to start somewhere.

In higher levels you are taught knifefighting which is very effective.

Rune Lind
KM Norway
 
My dissatisfaction with martial arts in general stems from a lack of effectiveness against multiple atackers/ more body wheight, lack of good defense against a knife, and a general cocky attidude people seem to get when they learn one of these arts.

I never leave the house with out a sharp knife or a gun or both.

Enjoy "Krav Mega"
 
Dirty Little Secret

Hey, Witzig

A large part of the Isreali Army is now made up of former Russian Soldiers including Spetznatz people.

Also all the Russians I have trained with no matter what they're MA or Sports Background is, are Brutal when they train. This is because in Russia they start young, and thier training is not watered down at all for fear of someone getting hurt like here in the U.S. They train for war. You should check out thier Judo guys to. They are awesome.
 
Well done IKMF

:D I'm glad you put it in terms that are easy to understand. You said what I was trying to say, but couldn't express myself well about KM ground techniques.

Thank you.
 
krav maga

I have been training Krav Maga for couple of years and found some messages in this thread to be quite interesting. Most of the questions asked about Krav Maga got already answered here (and if some didn't, ask Rune Lind, he always seems to find good and accurate answers to questions concerning KM).

One of the things that got my attention was IZZY's post saying: 'Krav Mega...and just about any martial art would not stand a chance against a guy with a nice razor sharp 5 inch Finnish blade in the hands of some one who knows how to use it'

What I believe is that training ie. Krav Maga, gives you a great advantage in bare hands vs. knife -fight when compared to a person who hasn't had any training, so why not to do it? And as IZZY said 'in the hands of some one who knows how to use it', thats one of the reasons why we train to use those things in Krav Maga.

- Jussi, a finnish Krav Maga trainee, who sees finnish blades daily ;)
 
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