Any feedback on Krav Maga?
- Thread starter Phred
- Start date
Arnistador
New member
I don't have a lot of firsthand knowledge, but from seeing demonstrations and playing with a couple stylists, the KM systems seems pretty effective, with emphasis on knee and elbow strikes.
Krav Maga Feedback
I've been taking Krav Maga for 2 1/2 years and it's the best thing that has ever happened to me. I started with little experiance in MA (Shotokan Karate). I came into class at 350 LBS and now I'm at 265 and dropping.
As for street effectivness. Last week we had an Oakland Police Officer (CA) use a gun take away technique from Krav Maga to save his life.
And about two month's ago we had a 4'11 125 Lbs female correction officer stop and subdue a 5'11 280 lbs inmate charging her with Krav Maga knee techniques.
As for feedback from most other Martial Artists who've taken Krav Maga. The most common are:
They've felt like they've been ripped off for the past x number of years taking (fill in the blank martial art).
They like it, because it is direct and straight to the point.
another comment I've heard, is that it improves thier performance in whatever art they've taken previously.
I know this is an old post, but I thought I should respond.
By the way check with www.kravmaga.com for a school near you.
Just thought I'd give you my 2 cents worth.
I've been taking Krav Maga for 2 1/2 years and it's the best thing that has ever happened to me. I started with little experiance in MA (Shotokan Karate). I came into class at 350 LBS and now I'm at 265 and dropping.As for street effectivness. Last week we had an Oakland Police Officer (CA) use a gun take away technique from Krav Maga to save his life.
And about two month's ago we had a 4'11 125 Lbs female correction officer stop and subdue a 5'11 280 lbs inmate charging her with Krav Maga knee techniques.
As for feedback from most other Martial Artists who've taken Krav Maga. The most common are:
They've felt like they've been ripped off for the past x number of years taking (fill in the blank martial art).
They like it, because it is direct and straight to the point.
another comment I've heard, is that it improves thier performance in whatever art they've taken previously.
I know this is an old post, but I thought I should respond.
By the way check with www.kravmaga.com for a school near you.
Just thought I'd give you my 2 cents worth.
I have a low opinion of Krav Mega ( lit. "touching combat") and of most martial arts except boxing, Jet koun Do, Mai Thai and a few others. Krav Mega is good for beginers with simple moves that MAY be effective against a stupid (gets too close with a gun/dull knife etc.) or non-determined attacker.
Like all martial arts, the larger person...IF DETERMINED will previal, unless you use an apropriate wepon. For victemization/rape prevention it's O.K....just don't let any system give you false confidence, it should be part of the whole defense system.
Like all martial arts, the larger person...IF DETERMINED will previal, unless you use an apropriate wepon. For victemization/rape prevention it's O.K....just don't let any system give you false confidence, it should be part of the whole defense system.
Simple moves are good for everyone. I try to make my training as simple as possible. Yeah, I know joint locks, grip-switching knife drills and long, complicated staff forms, but when it goes down? Break stuff. Quickly.
I'm not too familiar with Krav Maga, having only trained with some guys who are into it. But from what I understand, it is part of the distinguished tradition of military combative arts such as those developed and taught by Fairbairn and Applegate. No nonsense, in other words, and designed to get you up and running with some ability in a short time.
Military combatives are the original JKD. That isn't to say that being in the military makes you a good fighter; but time and research has shown simple, brutal techniques to be the ones that work when you have to go through somebody immediately. If you work these systems with dedication, they will serve you well.
Well, Mort you definantly have a clue of what Krav Maga is about. The system was desighned to bring people with no skill - up to fight very quickly. I'm also glad to see that you actually know the difference between complicated moves on the DOJO floor and what goes on in a streetfight. You've obviously have experiance in that area.I'm just curious as to what arts your trained in.
I also thank you for your words of encouragement. I'm most definantly sure that your students have one hell of an Instructor.
PaladinX13
New member
I sympathize with what IZZY's probably trying to say... that guns are the ultimate equalizer and that we should toss out our guns in favor of martial arts for self-defense (often an anti response "I know Kung Fu, I don't need a gun... neither do you!"). But as gun owners we shouldn't do the same thing and throw out martial arts.
Martial arts have value as recreation, exercise, and mental/social well being. I don't want to get to philosophical on you, but America has always had the gun... so fighting has always been about Excellence of Aim rather than Excellence of Self. You can train and train, but for most of us, there's only so much reality we can simulate with firearms... martial arts- especially those with heavy sparring and rolling- let you get hit, grappled, and thrown and still keep going. This kind of mental preparedness carries over to the street and even to firearms. And they work! At least for me! I had a successful defense just a few weeks ago.
In any case, I'd hardly claim my fists are better than your guns... but I will say MAs have been good for me, period.
btw, I assume your misspelling is meant to make fun of the MAs, but you misspell even the ones on your exception list (aside from boxing- my MA!)... I don't get it.
Martial arts have value as recreation, exercise, and mental/social well being. I don't want to get to philosophical on you, but America has always had the gun... so fighting has always been about Excellence of Aim rather than Excellence of Self. You can train and train, but for most of us, there's only so much reality we can simulate with firearms... martial arts- especially those with heavy sparring and rolling- let you get hit, grappled, and thrown and still keep going. This kind of mental preparedness carries over to the street and even to firearms. And they work! At least for me! I had a successful defense just a few weeks ago.
In any case, I'd hardly claim my fists are better than your guns... but I will say MAs have been good for me, period.
btw, I assume your misspelling is meant to make fun of the MAs, but you misspell even the ones on your exception list (aside from boxing- my MA!)... I don't get it.
PaladinX13
New member
Not to stand up for Krav Maga specifically, but just against that line of reasoning. Combatives, like Krav Maga, are fundamentally designed for people with better things to do with their lives than roll on the mat or rumble in a cage all day. Designed for people that do OTHER things first and foremost... with hand to hand combat being just another tool in the box.
Aside from other factors that makes UFC unrealistic, one of the important ones is the training regime these athletes go through. The top contenders do nothing else but train in their arts all day long. They're professionals. In that respect, it could be argued that many of THEIR arts are ineffective... requiring hours upon hours of training and mastery to be of any use. UFC is a sport with a very specific type of comparision. Effectiveness can't simply be measured by a standard of whether you'd be able to take a flying armbar from a 210lbs pro-fighter.
If something allows a female to take down an aggressor a foot taller giving over 100lbs without dedicated pro-fighting-level training... I'd consider that something to be effective (that's why I consider GUNS effective!).
Aside from other factors that makes UFC unrealistic, one of the important ones is the training regime these athletes go through. The top contenders do nothing else but train in their arts all day long. They're professionals. In that respect, it could be argued that many of THEIR arts are ineffective... requiring hours upon hours of training and mastery to be of any use. UFC is a sport with a very specific type of comparision. Effectiveness can't simply be measured by a standard of whether you'd be able to take a flying armbar from a 210lbs pro-fighter.
If something allows a female to take down an aggressor a foot taller giving over 100lbs without dedicated pro-fighting-level training... I'd consider that something to be effective (that's why I consider GUNS effective!).
FYI Eyeball, the Following UFC Guys train in Krav Maga:
Bas Ruten
Oleg Taktaroff
and
Tito Ortiz.
They train at the LA Krav Center.
Bas is a real nice guy, and he is a great instructor.
Nuff said.
P.S. Paladin, I don't discount firearms at all, I love my guns, but it's alway great to add more tools to the tool box.
" A man may know a million moves in martial arts, but one bullet can end them all"- Bruce Lee
Bas Ruten
Oleg Taktaroff
and
Tito Ortiz.
They train at the LA Krav Center.
Bas is a real nice guy, and he is a great instructor.
Nuff said.
P.S. Paladin, I don't discount firearms at all, I love my guns, but it's alway great to add more tools to the tool box.
" A man may know a million moves in martial arts, but one bullet can end them all"- Bruce Lee
Krav Mega...and just about any martial art would not stand a chance against a guy with a nice razor sharp 5 inch Finnish blade in the hands of some one who knows how to use it.
I do know something about Krav Mega...Your accusations made out of fustration for me trashing your prefered method of combat are meaningless.
As I told my "Krav Mega" Instructor when she aked ( in Hebrew) " So when do you use a "cold wepon", I answered " Anytime you dont have a "Hot one". Not the answer they wanted, but its the dang truth.
( "Cold wepon"= Kinfe, club, Rifle butt Etc. "Hot Wepon"= Handgun, rifle etc.)
Do I think Krav Mega is useless? No. Like I said for folk who don't have a clue how to be in a real fight...For folks starting out it' s a good point of departure. None of what it teaches is new.
BTW for those ( like me) who are really intrested in the origins of this stuff , and a chance to learn something new ( despite my misspellings- which are not ment to make fun of any body).... http://www.sundaytimesdirect.co.uk claims to have the recently declassifed OSS manual on fighting etc. on August 15 for 18 pounds...
I do know something about Krav Mega...Your accusations made out of fustration for me trashing your prefered method of combat are meaningless.
As I told my "Krav Mega" Instructor when she aked ( in Hebrew) " So when do you use a "cold wepon", I answered " Anytime you dont have a "Hot one". Not the answer they wanted, but its the dang truth.
( "Cold wepon"= Kinfe, club, Rifle butt Etc. "Hot Wepon"= Handgun, rifle etc.)
Do I think Krav Mega is useless? No. Like I said for folk who don't have a clue how to be in a real fight...For folks starting out it' s a good point of departure. None of what it teaches is new.
BTW for those ( like me) who are really intrested in the origins of this stuff , and a chance to learn something new ( despite my misspellings- which are not ment to make fun of any body).... http://www.sundaytimesdirect.co.uk claims to have the recently declassifed OSS manual on fighting etc. on August 15 for 18 pounds...
Combatives in General
Rise of Krav Maga is a part of a martial arts trend nowadays to proclaims combatives as "the next best thing" (remember Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Tae-Bo, what have you, in roughly chronological order?).
Combatives are excellent for bringing up raw recruits with minimal unarmed training quickly up to speed on basic unarmed self-defense methods that mostly work well. However, it is a part of the equation rather than a whole solution to unarmed self-defense.
For realistic self-defense training, there must first be an appreciation for the effects of weapons (firearms, blades, pipes, scissors, chairs, etc.). Systems such as Jeet Kune Do and Kali tend to excel there.
As for realistic UNARMED self-defense training, there should be, at minimum, three things that are achieved by such training:
1. Physical attribute improvements (Karl Gotch always said that "conditioning is the best catch" and Don Draeger pioneered the use of weight training for Judoka). Too many folks fall for "superior technique only can overcome strength difference" trap - there is some truth to it, but not enough to fall back on reliably in all situations.
2. Realistic techniques for ALL ranges of unarmed combat. No countering one punch with a duck and ten counter techniques or catching the punching arm by the wrist and wrist-lock throwing.
3. Dynamic training (free-sparring or Randori) to the extent possible (again in all ranges) while preserving the margin of safety for the trainees. This is very important as static, "I-hit-you-then-you-do-this" type ONLY training does not prepare the practitioner for dynamic, unexpected and "fast-and-furious" reality of actual physical encounters. Many Aikido dojos, for example, delude themselves in this regard (not to say that Aikido is useless - it has some marvelous techniques for weapon retention and builds attributes like crazy - but that's another story). Of course, one can NEVER be 100% realistic, but some realism through sparring is better than none. No, the UFC is not realistic, but it is heck of a lot more realistic than Tae Kwon Do foot-tag competitions or kickboxing matches, or for that matter, no sparring/dynamic training at all.
Does Krav Maga (or any combative) fulfill all three? No - one, maybe two, but not all three. But then again, what system really does? Few, if any. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (which I practice and love)also covers one or maybe two aspects at best. Naturally, some are better than others (I wouldn't for the life of me recommend Tae Kwon Do, for example, as a realistic unarmed self-defense system).
Lastly, it should be noted that with any system, there must be constant practice. It's been scientifically demonstrated that muscle memory takes a minimum of 1,000 repetitions to achieve properly. Practicing some combative type moves or some Jiu-Jitsu "tricks" a few hours isn't going to do anyone any good.
If one is serious about learning unarmed self-defense, it must really invove a lifestyle change. But then again, it's good for your health (generally) anyway - so why not do it?
Otherwise, don't expect to be a couch potato, go learn Krav Maga (or anything) for a few hours and be falsely confident about one's ability to handle onself in dicey situations. If time is an issue (that is if you are too busy to work out at all), spend the time to learn to operate better equalizers (firearms, for example) and hope to God that you never drop it, lose it, struggle for it or generally have it unavailable (as several cases have demonstrated in the pages of "American Rifleman").
BTW, I personally like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, NOT because I am deluded enough to think that it's THE SYSTEM and NOT because I want to flop to the ground to fend off attackers, but because 1) it's fun for me and 2) because it deals with one situation in which I cannot use my track-and-field skills to run away like a bat-out-hell to "evade" the situation - when I am FORCED to the ground (lose mobility) with no other weapon. My goal is not to get arm locks or foot locks. My goal is to use whatever method possible (including arm locks or foot locks or anything else) as a means to HELP ME reverse the situation, get up and take off in a hurry - which is the real end.
Skorzeny
Rise of Krav Maga is a part of a martial arts trend nowadays to proclaims combatives as "the next best thing" (remember Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Tae-Bo, what have you, in roughly chronological order?).
Combatives are excellent for bringing up raw recruits with minimal unarmed training quickly up to speed on basic unarmed self-defense methods that mostly work well. However, it is a part of the equation rather than a whole solution to unarmed self-defense.
For realistic self-defense training, there must first be an appreciation for the effects of weapons (firearms, blades, pipes, scissors, chairs, etc.). Systems such as Jeet Kune Do and Kali tend to excel there.
As for realistic UNARMED self-defense training, there should be, at minimum, three things that are achieved by such training:
1. Physical attribute improvements (Karl Gotch always said that "conditioning is the best catch" and Don Draeger pioneered the use of weight training for Judoka). Too many folks fall for "superior technique only can overcome strength difference" trap - there is some truth to it, but not enough to fall back on reliably in all situations.
2. Realistic techniques for ALL ranges of unarmed combat. No countering one punch with a duck and ten counter techniques or catching the punching arm by the wrist and wrist-lock throwing.
3. Dynamic training (free-sparring or Randori) to the extent possible (again in all ranges) while preserving the margin of safety for the trainees. This is very important as static, "I-hit-you-then-you-do-this" type ONLY training does not prepare the practitioner for dynamic, unexpected and "fast-and-furious" reality of actual physical encounters. Many Aikido dojos, for example, delude themselves in this regard (not to say that Aikido is useless - it has some marvelous techniques for weapon retention and builds attributes like crazy - but that's another story). Of course, one can NEVER be 100% realistic, but some realism through sparring is better than none. No, the UFC is not realistic, but it is heck of a lot more realistic than Tae Kwon Do foot-tag competitions or kickboxing matches, or for that matter, no sparring/dynamic training at all.
Does Krav Maga (or any combative) fulfill all three? No - one, maybe two, but not all three. But then again, what system really does? Few, if any. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (which I practice and love)also covers one or maybe two aspects at best. Naturally, some are better than others (I wouldn't for the life of me recommend Tae Kwon Do, for example, as a realistic unarmed self-defense system).
Lastly, it should be noted that with any system, there must be constant practice. It's been scientifically demonstrated that muscle memory takes a minimum of 1,000 repetitions to achieve properly. Practicing some combative type moves or some Jiu-Jitsu "tricks" a few hours isn't going to do anyone any good.
If one is serious about learning unarmed self-defense, it must really invove a lifestyle change. But then again, it's good for your health (generally) anyway - so why not do it?
Otherwise, don't expect to be a couch potato, go learn Krav Maga (or anything) for a few hours and be falsely confident about one's ability to handle onself in dicey situations. If time is an issue (that is if you are too busy to work out at all), spend the time to learn to operate better equalizers (firearms, for example) and hope to God that you never drop it, lose it, struggle for it or generally have it unavailable (as several cases have demonstrated in the pages of "American Rifleman").
BTW, I personally like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, NOT because I am deluded enough to think that it's THE SYSTEM and NOT because I want to flop to the ground to fend off attackers, but because 1) it's fun for me and 2) because it deals with one situation in which I cannot use my track-and-field skills to run away like a bat-out-hell to "evade" the situation - when I am FORCED to the ground (lose mobility) with no other weapon. My goal is not to get arm locks or foot locks. My goal is to use whatever method possible (including arm locks or foot locks or anything else) as a means to HELP ME reverse the situation, get up and take off in a hurry - which is the real end.
Skorzeny
MadGrad, I take it you live in L.A. as well. Do you only study Krav Maga or do you have experience with other gyms here in L.A. ? I'd like to hear more first hand info about the school on Century Blvd. I've met one of the instructors at a Muay Thai tournament (ironically he introduced me to Bas) but haven't heard much about the school since.
Very well put Skorzeny,and yes Krav Maga does fulfill all three of your requirements.
The only weakness Krav Maga does have is ground techniques. If we get on the ground with a Wrestler, Judoku, and BJJ person, were pretty much toast. If none of our strikes work. This why we train not to go to the ground unless we can't help it.
As for most of the combatives, the only ones I know of being taught in the U.S. before everybody jumped on the combatives band wagon:
Is American Combatives using the Fairburn Methods pionered for the OSS, with Mr. Karey teaching it.
and Krav Maga
Whose people have been going around the U.S. doing Law Enforcement Seminars and Teaching Krav Maga in the U.S. since 1981.
Any one of the three reasons you mentioned earlier is always included in the answer given on why we get people training with us in our School.
As Personal observance.
There seems to be a large and growing discontentment out there of people and martial artists alike, who actually want to learn how to fight and are sick of the Mc Dojo's with thier TV show series "Kung Fu" eastern philosopy mysticysim, point fighting best/ Kata/ Forms get a trophy training.
There is nothing wrong with that if thats what your into or thats what your seeking through Martial Arts, but if you want to learn how to fight it's a different ballgame all together. Most Mc Dojo's don't explain this difference to students. They usually find out the hard way, taking there first real hit in the street.
What I'm seeing in the Combatives field now is several different things coming out.
1. Lot's MA's who are sick of "no head contact" training modifying thier style to the street as best as they can.
2. The bottom Feeding Mc Dojo's sensing this discontentment and reinventing themselves as a way to make money while deceiving people. i.e. "Oh yeah we're teaching combatives" but you go in and none of these people are allowed spar, or are even conditioned to fight at all.
3. The true frauds and con men making up "Combative Systems" with no clue how to fight at all. i.e. SCARS and another guy named David Slavin (read about him in the Santa Clara Metro alternative {CA}news paper weekly story archives) [he's serving prison time now]
This is why I love Boxing,Judo ,Krav and Muay Thai so much. That's also why I reccomend trying these arts to any MA (Martial Artist)or other person whose intrested in knowing the difference between point fighting and fighting just below a street fight level.
Nuff said.
P.S. to A-Team
I don't live in LA, I was just visiting the La Krav Center and was lucky enough to have a class with Bas Rutten.
I think the instructor your thinking of is Vut Kammark. I probally F' d up the spelling. He's in charge of thier Muay Thai program.
The only weakness Krav Maga does have is ground techniques. If we get on the ground with a Wrestler, Judoku, and BJJ person, were pretty much toast. If none of our strikes work. This why we train not to go to the ground unless we can't help it.
As for most of the combatives, the only ones I know of being taught in the U.S. before everybody jumped on the combatives band wagon:
Is American Combatives using the Fairburn Methods pionered for the OSS, with Mr. Karey teaching it.
and Krav Maga
Whose people have been going around the U.S. doing Law Enforcement Seminars and Teaching Krav Maga in the U.S. since 1981.
Any one of the three reasons you mentioned earlier is always included in the answer given on why we get people training with us in our School.
As Personal observance.
There seems to be a large and growing discontentment out there of people and martial artists alike, who actually want to learn how to fight and are sick of the Mc Dojo's with thier TV show series "Kung Fu" eastern philosopy mysticysim, point fighting best/ Kata/ Forms get a trophy training.
There is nothing wrong with that if thats what your into or thats what your seeking through Martial Arts, but if you want to learn how to fight it's a different ballgame all together. Most Mc Dojo's don't explain this difference to students. They usually find out the hard way, taking there first real hit in the street.
What I'm seeing in the Combatives field now is several different things coming out.
1. Lot's MA's who are sick of "no head contact" training modifying thier style to the street as best as they can.
2. The bottom Feeding Mc Dojo's sensing this discontentment and reinventing themselves as a way to make money while deceiving people. i.e. "Oh yeah we're teaching combatives" but you go in and none of these people are allowed spar, or are even conditioned to fight at all.
3. The true frauds and con men making up "Combative Systems" with no clue how to fight at all. i.e. SCARS and another guy named David Slavin (read about him in the Santa Clara Metro alternative {CA}news paper weekly story archives) [he's serving prison time now]
This is why I love Boxing,Judo ,Krav and Muay Thai so much. That's also why I reccomend trying these arts to any MA (Martial Artist)or other person whose intrested in knowing the difference between point fighting and fighting just below a street fight level.
Nuff said.
P.S. to A-Team
I don't live in LA, I was just visiting the La Krav Center and was lucky enough to have a class with Bas Rutten.
I think the instructor your thinking of is Vut Kammark. I probally F' d up the spelling. He's in charge of thier Muay Thai program.