Although this thread got a little nasty, it is extremely interesting reading. I am not a history buff of any sorts, but none the less, a very interesting topic. I have no idea which of the two main posters are correct but I appreciate both of their detailed explanations. That is why I continue to read this forum!! Thanks to both!
Any difference between 9mm Luger/9mm Parabellum?
- Thread starter Foxy
- Start date
Blackhawk,
Ok, so for occam's razor's sake, para bellum means prepare war! and that's it.
But I'm still sure there's more than a fair chance that DWM chose this as a brand name for the same subtle reasons Horch chose Audi or Benz chose Mercedes. Or do you think he would have named the cars Antonia or Gretel if that had been her name?
You keep saying that because it's a brand name, it's actual meaning is irrelevant. So it doesn't matter what audio, video, or television means as long as it sounds good?
So you related "because unlike others..." to yourself? I hope that's not a case of projection because I didn't mean you.
Ok, so for occam's razor's sake, para bellum means prepare war! and that's it.
But I'm still sure there's more than a fair chance that DWM chose this as a brand name for the same subtle reasons Horch chose Audi or Benz chose Mercedes. Or do you think he would have named the cars Antonia or Gretel if that had been her name?
You keep saying that because it's a brand name, it's actual meaning is irrelevant. So it doesn't matter what audio, video, or television means as long as it sounds good?
So you related "because unlike others..." to yourself? I hope that's not a case of projection
because I didn't mean you.MasterBlaster
New member
Sorry, but you're BOTH wrong....
The English prefix para- comes from both Latin AND Greek. In Greek it means "beside, nearby, along with." Hence the words paradigm, paramorphine, paranormal, paramilitary. It also comes from the Latin imperative of parare meaning "to defend." Hence the word parasol; a small umbrella that protects one from the sun.
I believe parabellum is a combination of the Greek meaning of the prefix "para-" combined with the Latin word for war (bellum). Therefore, "for war" is not a bad interpretation. "Prepare war" or "prepare for war" are incorrect translations in my opinion, even though (if I recall correctly) parare can mean "to prepare for" as well as "to defend" in Latin. But I believe "para" is from Greek in this instance, not Latin.
Therefore, parabellum literally means of or related to war. It is a name that makes perfect sense to assign to a military standard type of ammo.
I didn't need years of Latin or Greek to tell you guys this. All it took was a good dictionary.
Now put your daggers away before someone gets hurt! How about pistols at 10 paces instead?
The English prefix para- comes from both Latin AND Greek. In Greek it means "beside, nearby, along with." Hence the words paradigm, paramorphine, paranormal, paramilitary. It also comes from the Latin imperative of parare meaning "to defend." Hence the word parasol; a small umbrella that protects one from the sun.
I believe parabellum is a combination of the Greek meaning of the prefix "para-" combined with the Latin word for war (bellum). Therefore, "for war" is not a bad interpretation. "Prepare war" or "prepare for war" are incorrect translations in my opinion, even though (if I recall correctly) parare can mean "to prepare for" as well as "to defend" in Latin. But I believe "para" is from Greek in this instance, not Latin.
Therefore, parabellum literally means of or related to war. It is a name that makes perfect sense to assign to a military standard type of ammo.
I didn't need years of Latin or Greek to tell you guys this. All it took was a good dictionary.
Now put your daggers away before someone gets hurt! How about pistols at 10 paces instead?
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MasterBlaster,
I bow to your knowledge and skill in cutting through all this with Occam's razor! The victory is yours, and may you enjoy its laurels in peace, happiness, prosperity and long life!
I bow to your knowledge and skill in cutting through all this with Occam's razor! The victory is yours, and may you enjoy its laurels in peace, happiness, prosperity and long life!
Ouch! Am I to infer that you think we're safer from one another wielding pistols at that modest distance than with drawn daggers? And this, a shooters site! Oh, the humiliation, the shame, the humanity of it all!
MasterBlaster
New member
On the contrary.....
Actually, I was secretly hoping you're both EXCELLENT shots!!!
Actually, I was secretly hoping you're both EXCELLENT shots!!!
MasterBlaster
New member
I live in Over-the-Rhine...
It's a formerly German part of the inner city. You may have heard of it. It made the national news last year when we had 3 days of race riots.
When you get here, just ask around for me on any street corner. I'm sure some nice person will be glad to "help" you.
The riots happened because a white officer shot and killed a black kid with 14 warrants (all for unpaid parking tickets) who ran from him. All hell broke loose. Initially, the officer said the kid made a sudden move towards his waist, and he thought he was going for a gun. During a later internal investigation, he admitted he lied about that. Apparently, he was running after the kid with his weapon drawn and HIS FINGER ON THE TRIGGER when the kid somehow startled him.
D-U-M-B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He was fired and is now working for a department in Northern Kentucky. (Insert Kentucky joke H-E-R-E!)
It's a formerly German part of the inner city. You may have heard of it. It made the national news last year when we had 3 days of race riots.
When you get here, just ask around for me on any street corner. I'm sure some nice person will be glad to "help" you.
The riots happened because a white officer shot and killed a black kid with 14 warrants (all for unpaid parking tickets) who ran from him. All hell broke loose. Initially, the officer said the kid made a sudden move towards his waist, and he thought he was going for a gun. During a later internal investigation, he admitted he lied about that. Apparently, he was running after the kid with his weapon drawn and HIS FINGER ON THE TRIGGER when the kid somehow startled him.
D-U-M-B!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He was fired and is now working for a department in Northern Kentucky. (Insert Kentucky joke H-E-R-E!)
I stand with T.Stahl and Jim Keenan.
I'll tell you a good reason why one should study Latin. Aside from the fact that it is the mother tongue of five modern European languages and gave a huge number of words to several Germanic languages, including English, it forms the basis of much of historical and legal readings.
That's why!
Anyone see Monty Python's "Life of Brian" where Brian is corrected by the Roman guard for his incorrect conjugation? Anyone who's had a Latin teacher knows what that's like.
Skorzeny
I'll tell you a good reason why one should study Latin. Aside from the fact that it is the mother tongue of five modern European languages and gave a huge number of words to several Germanic languages, including English, it forms the basis of much of historical and legal readings.
That's why!
Anyone see Monty Python's "Life of Brian" where Brian is corrected by the Roman guard for his incorrect conjugation? Anyone who's had a Latin teacher knows what that's like.
Skorzeny
Stand where you want, but MasterBlaster mercilessly cut up all the Latin dweebs with Occam's Razor. (It's in Ohio now, not far from Milford, and I'd been wondering where Occam left it.)
I think Latin should be studied because it's dead! One wonders why. No doubt that a conspiracy of disgruntled declinophopes, conjugophobes, and gerundophobes managed to feed it a hemlock salad dressed with formaldehyde while it was distracted by the Vandals and Goths at the gates. Nothing much else explains the pristine condition of its corpus, which remains with us to this day. A continuing mystery is why its proponents persistently prop it up on its throne as though it still rules!
I, myself, have often thought English could suffer the same fate if it's not careful. After all, many of those trying to learn the pronunciations and meanings of such words as those incorporating the combination "ough" are not altogether peaceful or patient. It's only defense is that most everybody recognizes something in it that was learned at their mother's knee, which, of course, only emphasizes how impure a language it is.
Perhaps something akin to that is what drives Latin dweebs -- they're seeking a pure language and nevermind that it's dead and reeking -- who mysteriously never seem to speak Latin among themselves, which would, of course, revive the language.
Grumble
::cough::
Parabellum is "Prepare for War" and not "for war"
Hence the Latin misquote:
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum.
which is a transliteration of:
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" - Vegetius (Flavius Vegetius Renatus) (Epitoma rei militaris, Prologue, 3)
Translation: "If you want peace prepare for war"
As Luger was likely educated in the classics, as most educated Germans were at that time, he was probably aware of this quote. As he was probably educated in the classics. Luger was, moreover a soldier, and thus would agree with the sentiments expressed.
Moreover... there are some things you can't do with a dictionary that you can do if you can read a language. Like German (Deutsch).
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/patrone9mmparabellum.html
Der Name Parabellum leitet sich aus der Kurzform des lateinischen Feldherren Spruchs 'qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum' (wer Frieden wünscht, bereitet den Krieg vor) 'Si vis pacem, para bellum' (wenn du den Frieden willst, bereite den Krieg vor) ab. Heute ist sie ein weltweit eingesetztes Geschoss, verwendet von Sportschützen wie auch von Polizeikräften und dem Militär. Die Patrone 9x19 mm ist NATO-Standard-Patrone für Pistolen und Maschinenpistolen.
The name Parbellum comes from the short form of the latin Field-Commander's words, "Qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum" (Who wishes peace, should prepare for the war.) "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Who wishes peace, should prepare for the war). Today it is a bullet used world-wide, from sports-shooters to the Policeforce, and the military. The 9X19mm cartridge is the NATO-Standard-Cartridge for pistols and sub-machineguns.
I hope that settles anyones doubts that "Parabellum" comes from "Para Bellum" which means "Prepare for war!"
-Morgan (exhausted linguist)
Edit: another source same general story. Once again in German.
http://www.waffen-online.de/download/text9mm.pdf
::cough::
Parabellum is "Prepare for War" and not "for war"
Hence the Latin misquote:
Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum.
which is a transliteration of:
"Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" - Vegetius (Flavius Vegetius Renatus) (Epitoma rei militaris, Prologue, 3)
Translation: "If you want peace prepare for war"
As Luger was likely educated in the classics, as most educated Germans were at that time, he was probably aware of this quote. As he was probably educated in the classics. Luger was, moreover a soldier, and thus would agree with the sentiments expressed.
Moreover... there are some things you can't do with a dictionary that you can do if you can read a language. Like German (Deutsch).
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/patrone9mmparabellum.html
Der Name Parabellum leitet sich aus der Kurzform des lateinischen Feldherren Spruchs 'qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum' (wer Frieden wünscht, bereitet den Krieg vor) 'Si vis pacem, para bellum' (wenn du den Frieden willst, bereite den Krieg vor) ab. Heute ist sie ein weltweit eingesetztes Geschoss, verwendet von Sportschützen wie auch von Polizeikräften und dem Militär. Die Patrone 9x19 mm ist NATO-Standard-Patrone für Pistolen und Maschinenpistolen.
The name Parbellum comes from the short form of the latin Field-Commander's words, "Qui desiderat pacem praeparat bellum" (Who wishes peace, should prepare for the war.) "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (Who wishes peace, should prepare for the war). Today it is a bullet used world-wide, from sports-shooters to the Policeforce, and the military. The 9X19mm cartridge is the NATO-Standard-Cartridge for pistols and sub-machineguns.
I hope that settles anyones doubts that "Parabellum" comes from "Para Bellum" which means "Prepare for war!"
-Morgan (exhausted linguist)
Edit: another source same general story. Once again in German.
http://www.waffen-online.de/download/text9mm.pdf
WOW! You take two suppositions about the guy and twist them into a conclusion that he would agree with what you think! That's as though the guy never had an original thought despite being quite an imaginative inventor! And you're presuming that he had no knowledge of Greek...? Astounding, simply astounding!
Since 99% of the DNA of chimps and humans is the same doesn't that make them the same? How about maternal twins? Do you think two long since dead were the same in speech, thought, actions, and emotions?
Just because two words start with the same six of eight letters arranged exactly the same doesn't mean they're the same. Otherwise, you'd better be more careful about what you call yourself. Linguini with Marinara -- yum! Linguist with Latin -- :barf:
Mike Irwin
Staff
Thanks, guys.
My brain is dripping out my ears...
My brain is dripping out my ears...
MasterBlaster
New member
Wave the White Flag
Sorry, but Caesarl is right about one thing. There ARE limitations to dictionaries.
Since Parabellum is a NAME, not a word, a dictionary can't be the final authority. The only person who knows for sure where the name came from is the person(s) who thought it up.
Since Luger was German-made, the Germans are probably the best authorities on where the name came from. And anyone must admit that it's certainly possible that para bellum became Parabellum.
Since two German sites say that's indeed where it came from, that's good enough for me. Occam's razor is double-edged! Ouch!!!
I'm not here to flame, and I don't believe in turning up the heat when someone proves me wrong. Plus I never said I knew for certain. I thought people were assuming "para" came from Latin because "bellum" does. And maybe they did. And maybe they assumed right.
Lucky bastards.
Blackhawk, you're now on your own, but you can at least take comfort in the fact that Latin dweebs are just that.....DWEEBS!!!!!
PREPARE FOR WAR!
Sorry, but Caesarl is right about one thing. There ARE limitations to dictionaries.
Since Parabellum is a NAME, not a word, a dictionary can't be the final authority. The only person who knows for sure where the name came from is the person(s) who thought it up.
Since Luger was German-made, the Germans are probably the best authorities on where the name came from. And anyone must admit that it's certainly possible that para bellum became Parabellum.
Since two German sites say that's indeed where it came from, that's good enough for me. Occam's razor is double-edged! Ouch!!!
I'm not here to flame, and I don't believe in turning up the heat when someone proves me wrong. Plus I never said I knew for certain. I thought people were assuming "para" came from Latin because "bellum" does. And maybe they did. And maybe they assumed right.
Lucky bastards. Blackhawk, you're now on your own, but you can at least take comfort in the fact that Latin dweebs are just that.....DWEEBS!!!!!
PREPARE FOR WAR!
MasterBlaster
New member
After looking at the number of Mike Irwin's posts, my brain is dripping out my ears!!
LOL! Believe it or not, I don't have a dog in this fight. I just take some perverse pleasure in challenging those who make bold statements based on supposition. That might come from having to argue with gun grabbers now and then.
They started out saying that parabellum means something in Latin, but they admitted that it's not even a word, but a trademark.
But they continued after conveniently bifurcating the word into "para bellum", so the foundation of their original argument doesn't even exist any longer. The more they're provoked the more fantastic their convolutions became, even to recasting George Luger's life into a revisionist incarnation of what he must have learned, must have thought, and must have concluded while frantically trying to give a marketing name to a mere component of his invention!
As I said earlier, NOBODY knows! But you wouldn't know that from some of the arguments on this thread as they confidently assert this and that about a purposefully coined word.
I haven't pulled out the paragon, paralysis, and other para tail twisters. Sometimes you just have to admit that you can't argue with some people....
They started out saying that parabellum means something in Latin, but they admitted that it's not even a word, but a trademark.
But they continued after conveniently bifurcating the word into "para bellum", so the foundation of their original argument doesn't even exist any longer. The more they're provoked the more fantastic their convolutions became, even to recasting George Luger's life into a revisionist incarnation of what he must have learned, must have thought, and must have concluded while frantically trying to give a marketing name to a mere component of his invention!
As I said earlier, NOBODY knows! But you wouldn't know that from some of the arguments on this thread as they confidently assert this and that about a purposefully coined word.
I haven't pulled out the paragon, paralysis, and other para tail twisters. Sometimes you just have to admit that you can't argue with some people....
The Plainsman
New member
Blackhawk....
You guys left me in the dirt on the Latin. My two years of high school Latin paled in comparison; however, your reference to pronunciations using "ough" brought to mind a favorite Dr. Seuss book - "Tough Coughs As He Ploughs the Dough".
Best I could come up with.
You guys left me in the dirt on the Latin. My two years of high school Latin paled in comparison; however, your reference to pronunciations using "ough" brought to mind a favorite Dr. Seuss book - "Tough Coughs As He Ploughs the Dough".
Best I could come up with.
Pigshooter
New member
Umm,
I'm more into Russian, but aren't Latin and Greek pretty consistent in conjugation and structure? So that while the phrase "prepare [for] war" would be in that order, if the Greek preference is used, wouldn't "War-Like" or "War-Type" be written "Like-War" or "Type-War"?
That seems to me to be more what someone would have in mind in designating a noun (cartridge) with a modified adjective (War-type).
And it would come naturally to a European to do so, even if the root words were modified; the positions would still probably be the same.
The same holds true in Spanish/Portuguese. Paraguay/Uruguay anyone?
Besides, everyone knows that Parabellum is German for Luger! LOL!
I'm more into Russian, but aren't Latin and Greek pretty consistent in conjugation and structure? So that while the phrase "prepare [for] war" would be in that order, if the Greek preference is used, wouldn't "War-Like" or "War-Type" be written "Like-War" or "Type-War"?
That seems to me to be more what someone would have in mind in designating a noun (cartridge) with a modified adjective (War-type).
And it would come naturally to a European to do so, even if the root words were modified; the positions would still probably be the same.
The same holds true in Spanish/Portuguese. Paraguay/Uruguay anyone?
Besides, everyone knows that Parabellum is German for Luger! LOL!