Any defenders of Feds action at Waco?

Rome,
Please don't take this as a flame, but I wanted to point out a few things:
1. The ATF (IMHO)is an organization that is in existence solely to separate Americans from their rights. We could argue this, but the constitution only grants the Federal Government enforcement over certain crimes. Treason,Piracy, and counterfieting come to mind. The rest were left to the able hands of local law enforcement.
2. Just because they were nice guys, doesn't mean that they weren't responsible. I am in the same disgust with the Army though. A lot of the NAZI's were just nice guys following orders. I mean that. Perspective is an interesting thing. I know a lady who's father was a brewmiester in NAZI Germany. Brew miesters were pillars of German community, and he happened to know Adolph Hitler. Hitler came over to their house on several occasions, and she said that he would read to the children, and get down on his hands and knees to play with them all the while laughing and having as much fun as they were. Only after the war did she learn how evil the man was, and she still finds it hard to believe. Most ATF agents aren't bad people. I think that they didn't take their oath the Uphold the Constitution very seriously though. Most of our soldiers have never actually read the document that they are supposed to "protect and defend." My beef with the Army is so many are focused on making the next rank, that they won't do what their oath requires when the time comes. How many officers resigned their commissions during Viet-nam, Korea, Panama, Haiti, Grenada, and the PGW? All of these were not declared wars by Congress, yet nobody even stopped to request Congress declare war before we go to war. There should have been a rash of officers resign. The Marine Corps is the only service who's officers still hold the oath. They have been resigning frequently over the past 7 years, and for that I give them credit. I wish I had been a Marine.
3. While the agents themselves aren't probably bad men, they should have questioned the order which was immoral, and indecent. If kids were killed by the Branch Davidians, could it be that they were gassed for 3 hours straight, and when the building started burning they couldn't stand to watch their kids suffer anymore pain? We'll never know the answer, but the raid and everything surrounding this debacle points the finger to lack of proper planning by somebody in the Government. Why has there not been any firings over this? Why is Lon Horiucci still employed by the FBI? These guys are supposed to be professionals. If a Deputy in my county makes a bad shoot, even if it was an honest mistake, he gets canned, and will probably never be a peace officer in the State of Texas again. Is this too much to ask for federal law enforcement too?
 
Kframe,

You can make anything you want a human rights violation, just as the Clinton administration is trying to do by expanding the "hate crimes" laws in the US.

That doesn't make it so, though.

In all by a very few cases (the Elian Gonzales case being one of them, in which a federal agency, INS, has been granted custodial oversight), laws designed to protect children are enforced at the state level.

The murders of the Branch Davidians? Now that WAS a violation of human rights.
 
It was obvious to the federal baby incinerators (FBI) that these children were hopelessly tainted with religion and ideas about political freedoms. The FBI did them the best favor anyone could have do them. The children had to be killed for their own protection.
 
KJM
No, I certainly didn't take your reply as a flame. One the contrary, you make some great points which would spark a great debate. Just as an aside, I'm really pleased with the replys this thread has elicited. It goes to show that the bulk of TFLers are actual, thinking, and informed humans. We an agree to disagree but at least we're not screaming at eachother.

I'd like to point out that the ATF does serve a purpose in our country. Locally, the ATF has pursued big time gang/drug criminals who have arsenals (proper use of term?) in their homes. It never gets to the press, however. Sometimes I think they prefer it that way rather than alert or upset the neighbors. Gang members in our state were acting just like everyone else: run their business in the cities during the day and then heading to the "burbs" for the evening. The communities they were living in didn't even have any gang activity. These BGs, however, did take their work home with them and the ATF has made terrfic headway in arresting these guys and ultimatly cutting the heads off the gangs in our state. You haven't read this in the papers but I'll tell you it's true. Bombs are another thing the ATF has had to deal with.

Now, can this power be wielded against honest, law abiding citizens? Yep. Has it happened? I'm sure it has. What is the solution? Should we eliminate them and allow these drug guys and gang guys free reign? In most cases the local and State police are not equipt to investigate these cases. So what do we do? There are no simple answers but I truly believe that the proper use of force can be effective if properly controled. I hold the current administration responcible and hope that times will improve with the coming election.

Rome

P.S. I really wish there was a spell checker available. Sometimes I type my posts in Word and then import them but that's a pain.
Sorry for any misspellings! RJP


[This message has been edited by Rome (edited April 28, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Keenan:
Since the manufacture of machineguns without the proper license is basically tax evasion, the Federal government took perfectly proper action against those who did not pay taxes.

Jim[/quote]

Interesting observation, but since there is no evidence at all about any illegal full auto weapons at Waco, how does it apply?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kframe:
How is organized large-scale child abuse/endangerment not a Federal issue?
Couldn't it fall under "human rights violations"?
Thanks, -Kframe[/quote]

Who gets to determine the definition of "large-scale"? If you let the Fed's do it, you'll have them shooting up the local supermarket every time a mother smacks her kid on the butt for misbehaving!
 
Rome...

It is refreshing to hear your "insiders" view of the Waco murders. As it extends the thought of just how sick those who represented "law enforcement" at Waco are to have covered-up their murderous acts.

I suggest strongly that you rent the video documentary called, "Waco" at your local Blockbuster. You will learn that the official lines regarding acts of child abuse, drug manufacture, and possession of "machine guns" are all unsubstaintiated nonsense. In addition, you will be quite shocked to see the government's own FLIR video which clearly illustrates automatic gun fire aimed into the complex by what we all assume are Delta Force soldiers covered by APCs. These APCs are the same ones that are mounted with CN gas delivery systems which are seen destroying (ventilating) the timber framed buildings while delivering CN to the building's interior. It is this volitile gas along with the purposely ventilated building, and the combination of flash bangs fired by government agents/military personnel that ignites the complex. It is the government that murdered those men, women, and children at Mount Carmel, not a "mass suicide" as claimed in the official line. All this occurred while Branch Davidians members pleaded with agents via telephone to stop this outrage (which is just a part of the massive evidence against the government).

Everytime our fellow Americans bring up "facts" which represent the official line regarding Waco (such as child sex, drug manufacture, and possession of automatic weapons), I am further convinced that it will be these same naive Americans who will freely give up the remainder of their freedoms without a fight. They will do so because they have put their respective faith into a corrupted system, allowed this system to do their thinking for them, and have become entranced by utter lies which has lulled them into complacency.

And if you think these lies start and stop at Waco, you are gravely mistaken!
 
Rome,
In Texas, the Department of Public Safety runs the nations foremost crime lab. It surpasses the FBI crime lab in equipment and expertise. The DPS also does not have the taint of "manufactured evidence" that the Federal Government agencies recently came under fire for. The Texas Rangers are an investigative organization. They aren't really what you see on Walker, but are more likely to be a pencil-necked geek with a lot of education who will investigate a crime until it is solved. In Texas we have the facilities to handle problems, but we don't handle non-problems. The ATF clearly wanted to impress Congress with a big raid so their funding would be increased. This is why they notified all the news agencies that "somthing big is going to go down in Waco, Texas". I reject the notion that to stop child abuse, you subject children (for which no gas masks are manufactured) to gassing for hours on end, and then you take risks with their lives. The Feds could have much more cheaply (in lives and money) erected an 18 foot chainlink fence around the compound and waited the Davidians out with a couple of armed guards. Once they got down to destroying evidence, they lost all credibility. I did forget that the ATF investigates and handles bombs. Still, while useful, this isn't somthing that is an imperitive. States can investigate bombs too. Not all ATF agents are Rogue, but many are. Unfortunately in Federal service, it seems that the agents who just do their jobs, and don't make headlines don't get noticed by anybody in the promotions department. "One bad apple..." Many just don't understand that they are taking liberty from their own children. The Sheriff of Mclennon county (waco) had investigated the child abuse, and had said that David Koresh himself had reported the Meth lab from a previous sect leader, and asked the Sheriff to come and remove it from the premisis. The only reason the meth lab was mentioned (in the warrant) was to be able to use National Guard helicopters and tanks to assault the buildings. Child abuse accusations stem from the need to demonize the sect to garner public support for the assault.
If you watch long enough you'll see a formula used on every single Federal raid that is televised. First they demonize for days how evil the assaulted is. Mostly they use lies, sometimes they just stretch the truth. This serves a purpose also in making the Agents/purps sleep better at night knowing that the guy was really bad and deserved what he got.
Hitler didn't just go after the Jews, he first demonized them for years, as the cause of the German peoples downfall after WWI. We do the same thing here.
David Koresh was engaging in the fullest amount of liberties guaranteed under our constitution. First he utilized freedom of religion. Second the right to keep and bear arms. It is immaterial how many guns he had or what type. We have a right to be armed. He did however invite the ATF to come on out and inspect his collection, but they refused just a few weeks prior to the raid. The Sheriff is quoted as saying "if I wanted to talk to David [Koresh], I'd just pick up the phone". Funny how the use of minimal force and coercion (sp?) can accomplish what Tanks, APC's, Helicopters, Aircraft, and hundreds of machinegun toting agents can't. If the Davidians were indeed tipped off prior to the invasion, and wanted to shoot at ATF, there is no reason why a single agent got off that cattle trailer alive. Prudence would dictate that they would have riddled the trailer with bullets killing all inside. I will never believe that the Davidians fired first. I still don't believe the ATF/FBI/Gestapo was justified in their raid. Even the local police and Deputies would use the Davidian firing range. The Davidians weren't afraid of law enforcement, rather they appreciated their presence on the place. We all have our prejudice's though. I personally am prejudiced to believe in the non-violent people should be left alone. I don't care if you illegally possess an M1 Abrams main battle tank, with enough ammo to destroy Down-town Houston. If you are non-violent, then you should be left alone. You are prejudiced it appears towards the ATF as you knew guys in the raid. My father worked for the Department of Agriculture, and so I too was predudiced towards the hand that fed me until I realized that the state and local Agriculture departments could do the same thing and be more effective than a national department. My father often said so himself. Local law enforcement tends to serve local problems. In Waco, nobody had a problem with the BD's so the Sheriff didn't make it a priority. In fact Koresh's neighbors said that the BD's were wonderful neighbors. We both have opinions, and we will never change those, but I'll grant you that the poor agent just trying to feed his family should never have been put in a position to die over some big-shot's hopes of more funding from Congress. For that, I truly am disappointed. I remember other times when the Federal bosses got their people killed over politics: Ruby Ridge, Somalia, and the other places where making headlines was more important than the lives of those who were at the mercy of the orders.
 
By what standard do citizens judge actions of government, the elected, or any of its entities, including personnel? Judging by he said she said is a poor substitution, at best for, the Law (constitution).

I find no authorization in the Constitution for a federal police force. Do any of you?

IMO who fired the first shot at Waco was not the first broken law to consider. Trespass on private property happened before the first shot. The federal government has/had no constitutional jurisdiction at Mount Carmel (Waco). The excuses used, guns, abuse, etc., are not part of the powers granted to the federal government and are therefore unconstitutional and illegal.

The bottom line, and not mentioned in this string, is exactly who is responsible for unconstitutional actions of the federal government? Obviously, the elected are the be held responsible. The citizenry has no peaceful power, the vote, over government agents.

If the citizenry wants a constitutional government then the people best get their head on straight and vote accordingly. History of the last 70-80 years is more than enough proof that democrat and/or republican party members elected to public office will not, do not and have no plans to obey the Law (Constitution) they swore to Preserve, Protect and Defend.

To stop some of the federal tyranny as Ruby Ridge, Waco and Miami vote third party come November, that is the solution to such tyranny. Nah, don't buy any more excuses because we don't have any other choice to stop the tyranny.
 
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