Any defenders of Feds action at Waco?

D

DAL

New member
This is probably going to go over like a lead balloon, but is there anyone out there willing to defend the Government's role in the Waco debacle? I'd really like to hear a moral defense of what happened there and try to follow the (twisted) logic.

I promise that I won't flame your reply, but I can't say the same for other readers of TFL.
DAL

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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
GOA, JPFO, PPFC, CSSA, LP, NRA
 
DAL, I was going to attempt a devil's advocate reply but just can't twist and contort my beliefs enough to get started. Especially after watching Waco, The Rules of Engagement the other night. What a nightmare come true and yes I did see the Appache and yes I heard that it returned minus one Maverick. And yes I saw the damage to the building in back and the autopsy results where the man's side was literally blown away.
No Dal, I just can't mount an argument because the truth is more important to me than the POWER.

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"Keep shootin till they quit floppin"
The Wife 2/2000
 
Were the facts in the case clear, I would be willing to give it a try, but the federal government has made it difficult to determine what the facts of the matter are. By "facts," I refer to the actions of government agents that led up to final assault on the compound, what role military personnel and equipment played in the chain of events, whether "machine guns" were inside (or at what moment semi-automatic firearms were converted to full auto), whether the people inside were fired upon first, and so on. The federal government has engaged in much obfuscation (to put it mildly) that has kept the facts of the matter from being known. Only when this condition is met, can someone argue whether their actions were justified. Since it seems that they do not want the facts to be known, one can logically assume that they have something to hide; something that may well do them great harm.
 
Okay, here's the best I can do. Children were being abused, and methamphetamine was bein' manufactured, and illegal machineguns were being stored. These necessetated a no-knock warrant. The large number of Davidian men and armament also required a large, well-armed team of ATF raiders. After the ATF was decimated by gunfire from within, the FBI, after tireless negotiating, attempted to use non-lethal force to end the situation (which was endangering innocent children). Did I mention they were being abused? So anyway, the radical cult members torched themselves rather than comply with lawful fed authority. Did I miss anything? Do I agree with any of that? NOT. But I think you can see that those who misuse their authority can pretty easily mantra themselves into believing their own BS, so they can sleep at night and hell, do it again. From a pure tactical standpoint, if you were REALLY serving a warrant on 100 well-armed drug dealers, you probably WOULD use that level of force for the raid. BUT, firing (until they ran out of ammo!)into a thin drywall building full of kids, well THAT is unconscienable. AND, pumping toxic and flammable levels of CS into an inadequately ventilated enclosure full of kids and the elderly, again...They're scum. Anyway, how did I do? Could I have made a good liberal?

[This message has been edited by simonov jr (edited April 26, 2000).]
 
I'll give it a try. Everyone who has uttered the statement, "No new gun laws, instead we must enforce those already on the books," endorses what happened at Waco. In the final analysis, federal firearms laws enforcement was what happened at Waco.

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"I don't believe in individualism, Peter. I don't believe that any one man is any one thing which everybody else can't be. I believe that we are all equal and interchangeable."--Ellsworth Toohey
 
The National news media is as much to blame as anybody. They broadcast all those lies and harped on them to convince the American sheeple just how bad those extremist children were. Better to cook them than let them grow up to be free thinking Americans. One of my dreams is to see "truthfull" and "fair" reporting. I know, but it is a dream!!

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From my cold dead hands.
 
Considering that state and local authorities had a standing invitation to visit and inspect any time they wanted, issued by David Koresh, there is absolutly NO justification for what happened there.

The issue that "children were being abused" doesn't hold water. That's a STATE responsibility, not a federal one.

According to some reports I've seen, the gov't also had a mole on the inside, whom Koresh finally made. The invitation to visit was issued through the mole.

Koresh also was regularly outside the compound alone, either in town or walking along the road out front. Had the Gov't really been interested, they could have picked him up at that time.
 
ATF was facing possible budget cuts. It needed headlines in order to prosper during the next fiscal year. The idiots running the show fully expected their show of force to cause the Davidians to surrender even though there was ample evidence to suggest that they wouldn't. So, in the true style of federal bureaucrats, who fully expect reality to submit to their authority, they surveyed reality and saw exactly what they wanted to see. The problem was that reality was not quite as malleable to ATF wishes as they had thought.
 
It wasn't just budget cuts. At the time, there was a lot of talk about how ATF wasn't necessary and that perhaps it should be folded into the FBI. This had been going on for while, when, surprise, surprise, the ATF hatches this big raid and brings along the media. Then it all blows up in their faces.

But, the raid achieved its purpose -- the ATF wasn't eliminated as an agency.

Jared
 
Since the manufacture of machineguns without the proper license is basically tax evasion, the Federal government took perfectly proper action against those who did not pay taxes.

Just remember that when you consider whether to take that questionable deduction on your income tax. Waco could happen at your house.

Jim
 
Jim,

Even the Government's mole couldn't provide any proof of the manufacture of machine guns. It was, if I remember correctly, an unsubstiated rumor fed to the Feds by a former, disillusioned cult member.
 
The situation at Waco was an excellent example of just how powerful the conspiracy is that we are dealing with. Naysayers, denial will get you nowhere.

Fact: Government actions represented a willful abuse of power invested in them by the U.S. Constitution.

Fact: Communication protocol by government agencies were contemputous. News releases were clearly blatant misrepresentations and fabrications of the conditions inside the Branch Davidian Complex. All news releases were meant to deceive the American people.

Fact: The heart of the Waco matter was an alledged firearm violation which is a tax issue. Upon escalating the matter to an armed raid, agencies began claiming unsubstantiated allegation regarding everything from child sexual abuse to the manufacture of methanphetamines. All this to turn the American people against the Davidians.

Fact: Two of the BATF agents killed in the initial "gun battle" which was obscured from the view of all cameras, were former Clinton body guards.

Fact: The news media fed the American people word for word news releases by the involved agencies, without further investigations.

Fact: The media was used as the major source of propaganda during the seige. They were clearly acting participants in the misinformation and deception attempted upon the American people. Willing and acting conspirators to cover-up a blatant government violation of human rights.

Fact: Use of United States military personnel using APCs, CN gas, incendiary devices, automatic and long range weapons, and arson against innocent men, women, and children clearly voilates the U.S. Constitution, its Bill of Rights, and any possible moral or ethical codes.

All for what? What really was accomplished? Was this the first of many illustrations of domestic government strength against its own people? Was this meant to intimidate more Americans into submission? Submission to what? What can we expect next?
 
Mike, I'm not contradicting you, just asking a question.
How is organized large-scale child abuse/endangerment not a Federal issue?
Couldn't it fall under "human rights violations"?
Thanks, -Kframe
 
HUTT HUTT HUTT HUTT---- Come on guys, they were just playing Army. None of the agents could cut it in the real military, so now their getting off with their uniforms and fully auto weapons. ATF has their little God syndrom and they are playing it to the fullest. They figure they can do whatever they please and Clinton (who has perfected lying thru his smile) and the liberal media will cover for them.
After all, anyone with guns and a religous belief is subvursive. If that is the definition of subvursive, count me it as one of them!
 
Each and every person you'll talk to has an opinion about WACO but their opinions are based on what they've seen on television or read in the papers. Like most of the "national" events that penetrate the news, the TV and newpapers are what form our opinions and that's sad because more often then not, the stories are "slanted" to fit a particular agenda.

There is no question that that WACO was a botched operation and needless death and destruction occured.

1)There were numerous times when Koresh could have been arrested. Heck, he even came to the door.
2)Janet Reno, after initially looking like she could handle her job, has failed miserably in everything she's attempted.
3)The military SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN INVOLVED in anything or on any level, even advisors.

I could go on an on. But my reason for this reply is that my Mom worked for the ATF for a long time. I knew some of the agents involved and I'll tell you that I liked them. They were humans just like you and me and they all follow orders. Unfortunatly, that was their downfall. There was simply no one in control of the whole operation and when the crap started flying, they had a fragmented command and control.

I've seen the "official" report. I've seen the photos that weren't printed. I heard, first hand, the stories. They were horrific. What most people don't know is that many of the children had bullets in their heads. That didn't happen at the hands of the ATF. As pointed out by other posts in this thread, there were skads of illegal weapons stored there. There were also children there. Koresh was demented and ultimately caused this to happen. He, and he alone, could have stopped the whole thing. Once the operation started, however, it esclated to a point of no return almost immediately and many died, INCLUDING two of the agents, one of whom my Mom knew.

I don't want to be flamed or thought of as someone who is being reactionary for the sake of taking a stand. All I'm saying is that this was a sad day from just about any angle you want to look at it. Ultimately it shows what happens when those in power don't know how to wield that power properly. Just look at the rest of the world and how this Whitehouse have handled our military: making "peacemakers" or "peacekeepers" out of soldiers! Spreading our assets to the point of breaking and not replentishing them.

It's easy to call the ATF, "Jack booted thugs". I'm sure that some of them were but I feel really sorry for the bulk of the men and women who have to put themselves into harms way for this Whitehouse. Just look at that INS agent in Miami. Do you think he's proud of what he did when he invaded that house? I tend to think that his boss got the order and he had to follow it or take the consequences.
Rome
 
Good points Rome! The real problem is with the rules themselves rather than the people who abide by, fall victim to, or enforce them. The US Congress is ultimately responsible.
 
Sometimes the feces hits the fan. See my comments on the MP5 post. The law was being enforced and by this action, our rights were maintained i.e; The BD's go on a rampage with the ARSENAL at their disposal. What angle do you think the moronic liberal press and anti's would have taken there????!!!!
 
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